Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Pretty much as probably say 95% of our roles, we have free transparent salary bands on the job specs. And we've got like a really cool tool called progression that we use with all of our career frameworks for each discipline. Um, that was really led from our, in like our employees directly. I think they kind of asked for it. I think they really wanted to see more transparency, particularly in roles and like engineering, where you have a really big team. So I think candidates really value that we're, we're being so open about salary bandings and I think it just makes our, our kind of culture really shine. And I think, um, you know, when you are, when you're discussing salary with candidates, as long as you can be clear as to why you've gone for middle or lower banding. Yeah. Um, they, they really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 00:00:43 Annie. Thank you so, so much for joining us. Um, I'm really, really pleased to be chatting with you today, uh, for the, so podcast for our listeners. Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, um, just to kick things off?
Speaker 0 00:00:57 Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Annie, Annie Jackson. Um, I've got about 10 years or coming up to 10 years experience in recruitment. Um, I've always tended to work for sort of startups and scale up. So, um, started my career, um, straight out of university, landed a role at inspiring interns, which was like a really fun internship recruitment agency. I was only there for a year, but that's kind of my first taste of recruitment, um, working on their team, helping graduates to put together like video CVS, which is quite fun. Um, and then was head hunted to go work for a, um, really cool startup called Qubit. Um, like a, um, marketing SAS kind of company. Um, I think I was there again just for about a year or so. Um, working on, uh, their, that acronym tech hiring, I've always kinda landed more on the non-tech hiring side than full on engineering hiring.
Speaker 0 00:01:46 I think that's just where my passions lie. Um, so kinda working on client services, hiring a bit of data and a bit of product hiring there as well. And then, um, had a big St at a company called car. Wow. Um, so I think some of you may have heard of car before there they're quite big now. I think when I joined there were only about 50 or so people, um, took them through to about two 50. Um, and by the time I left, they were in Spain, Germany and the UK. So yeah, really interesting experience there. And then, um, landed at Cleo and I've been here now for two years. Um, started off as like a sort of senior product and design recruiter and solo work my way up the ranks to, to now leading a team of 10, um, on the recruitment team. So yeah, it's been an absolute wild, wild ride at Cleo. A lot of fun started just before the pandemic hit in April, 2020. So quite a strange time to join a company, um, and spent most of my time working remotely, which again, I'd never worked in a remote role before, so that was really strange, but, um, really interesting. Um, and I've learned a lot along the way, um, lots of, um, ups and downs, but yeah, it's been great and really enjoyed my time.
Speaker 1 00:02:51 Amazing. And yeah, as you said, starting back in with them just before the pandemic to see them through who you're today. Um, so in, in January this year you became head of talent acquisition at Cleo. Is that right?
Speaker 0 00:03:07 Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I've not been enrolled that long, but uh, so still definitely learning still quite junior as head of TTA, but really, really enjoying it. So a really interesting role.
Speaker 1 00:03:16 Yeah. And, and having been at the company and progressed into that role as well. There's so much that obviously you've seen and that you can sort of, um, really help to shape the function. So really exciting. Can you tell me, um, a little bit about Cleo's mission and vision actually?
Speaker 0 00:03:32 Yeah, of course. So we are a UK headquarter business. Um, a FinTech can scale up. Um, our mission is to fight for the world's financial health. So we are aiming to kind of really educate younger people. Um, weirdly most of our users are actually based in the us. So lots of interesting challenges around building a product that's predominantly used by us users that the product's built by people based in the UK. Um, so, um, we help our users by educating them, um, and encouraging them to spend better build good credit and save what they can. Um, it's a really fun AI platform. So you can talk to CLE almost if you were a friend, um, it's a very sort of feminist chat bot as well, which I really Love's got really kind of fix energy, a lot of fun. Um, you can get roasted for your spending. I often get research to spending far too much on Deliveroo and, and Amazon. So, um, yeah, it's, uh, a really kinda nice app, um, to work on and the team are great. Like a really creative bunch of people. We have a team of female, um, kind of standup comics writing the tone of voice for Cleo as well, which is really cool. So, um, yeah, I've, I've always really liked working here. I think the, the, the team they've built has been, um, a really fun one to work with for sure.
Speaker 1 00:04:42 That's fantastic. And I love that you've got a, a team of standup female comics writing the, the tone of voice for CLE that's.
Speaker 0 00:04:49 Yeah, definitely. It's always a bit of a hard role to hire for though. Cause we have to find people that are based in the UK that can write in the American tone of voice that have like, are either, are either standup comedians or, um, kind of write for, um, screenplays and like comedy, um, plays and stuff. So yeah, quite, quite tough time or I'm not gonna lie, but, um, yeah, they're a really fun to out with definitely
Speaker 1 00:05:11 How been a career first as well.
Speaker 0 00:05:13 Yeah, definitely very niche.
Speaker 1 00:05:16 You the couple of years really look like at Cleo. Um, obviously you've been there since 2020, and as you've progressed through, through the, um, through the talent function, like I'd love to hear a bit more about what that journey has looked like for you.
Speaker 0 00:05:30 Yeah. I think it's been really, really interesting. I've definitely learned a lot. I think they have, uh, I know every company says this, but CLE does have like a really high hiring bar. Um, our CEO is involved on like signing off on every hire that we make. Um, pretty much all of the hires. So, um, you have to really build a case for making a hire clear for every candidate. So I think it's really led me to be, um, a lot more critical of people's experience to be really thorough in our kind of interview processes as well. So definitely have learned a lot on how to screen candidates, um, and um, just really understanding like what goodletts like for Cleo as well. That's been a real journey in itself, um, as well. Um, I think the team has grown and shrunk and grown over the two years, I think have worked with some amazing recruiters, um, amazing VP of peoples as well, heads of HR as well.
Speaker 0 00:06:22 Um, so David, um, Smith was like my, my manager before. He's amazing. He now works at 10 X banking, but um, learned a lot from him. I think he was someone that started his career in tech recruitment then worked up to be a VP of peoples. So that kind of journey is one that, yeah, I'm always really impressed by, and now my manager's she as well. She's great. Um, I think she used to work at super awesome. So, um, has loads of really kinda interesting experience working for like a similar kinda ethical startup as well. So yeah, really enjoying working with her as well.
Speaker 1 00:06:49 Nice, awesome. And, um, yeah, as you say, seeing the team sort of go bigger, slightly smaller, like go through different phases of growth, um, must have been really interesting and, and yeah, I love the sort of, um, the fact that you are, is it your CEO or your founder gets very involved with the hiring process because there is that sort of, um, still that care, like despite being that you are, there's still that real investment in people and building the team and getting the right people on board. Um, which is amazing. I think that's really, really cool. <laugh> so you you've seen the, the team scale to where its today, so you about two people?
Speaker 0 00:07:30 Yeah, just under about one I think.
Speaker 1 00:07:35 And um, like what has that journey like, you know, what's the approach been to hiring, um, like building your employer brand. I love your employer brand <laugh> I love, I love the CLE brand in general. <laugh> what, you know, what's communi communicated on your career site and, um, and through the content that you publish as well is just yeah. It's um, I proper fangirl over it.
Speaker 0 00:08:01 <laugh> <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:08:02 Um, so yeah. What has that journey looked like and, and sort of finding the right people to, to match your, your unique culture?
Speaker 0 00:08:10 It's been a really interesting one. So I think we've been quite lucky in the sense that our CEO really understands the importance of scaling and having a, a kind of solid TA team and investing in that team specifically as well. We're really lucky in a sense that we have our own dedicated employer brand specialist, um, Rosie she's absolutely amazing, um, really loved working with her. She's really smart. And, um, I think she's really passionate about DEI as well and, and kind of incorporating that particularly into our, I guess, employer brand as well. So kind of on our job ads, we have the, the DEI statement right at the top of the job ads. And, um, I think, you know, we can try and incorporate that as much as we can into our approach. I think it's a really inclusive environment at Cleo. I've never worked with such a broad range of people from different backgrounds and experiences.
Speaker 0 00:08:56 Um, and I, I hope that that comes through in the, the employer branding that we have as well. Definitely. Um, and yeah, I think that's kind of one thing that we've tried to really invest heavily in. I think we've got a really difficult tech stack to hire for as well, which has always been challenging. So we have Ruby on the back end and react native on the front end, which is like super competitive to hire for, um, as you're probably aware. So I think we, um, try and do as much as we can in the community of those two core tech disciplines, um, really getting involved with, um, kinda really Brighton the bigger kind of events they do and meetups, um, Silicon milk roundabout. I think we did recently as well in, in London. So just really trying to get our name out there as much as possible, because I think with the fact that nearly all of our users are based in the us, not many people, um, unless they downloaded the app back in, when we, when we first launched as a kind of Facebook, just Facebook messenger chat bot, um, not many people in the UK have heard of Cleo or we'll know of Cleo cause we don't really marketing in the UK.
Speaker 0 00:09:53 So just really trying to build our brand has been a real priority for us, um, at Cleo
Speaker 1 00:09:59 And with be having such a large presence in the us as well. Like how do you work that into your recruitment and how you scale the team? Like, do you look for people who have exposure to the us or actually you finding that that's not necessarily a, a, a skillset or experience that you really do need?
Speaker 0 00:10:18 Uh, I think for some roles it's definitely helpful to have that kind of knowledge of how the us financial system works. Um, so people, we do have quite a few people based in the UK that are from the us on the team, like our head of Bizo and partnerships, Callen, um, are head of copy Earl. I think they're both from the us, but working in the UK, I think that tone of voice can be difficult to nail. Um, you don't want it sound like a bunch of bris trying to sound like that's really. Yeah. I think people that maybe have, um, time in the, or, um, yeah, have kind grown up in the us generally
Speaker 1 00:10:53 The market.
Speaker 0 00:10:54 Definitely. Really sure.
Speaker 1 00:10:56 Yeah. And, and so throughout your time there so far, like have you got any real big learnings, um, like for you, for your team? Um, I'd love to hear any,
Speaker 0 00:11:05 Ooh, I think, um, yeah, I think like quality over quantity is definitely one that I've picked up at clear. I think back in my previous roles, I've always really been quite harsh for myself and wanted to hire as many people as possible, but I think it's better to hire, I don't know, 20 people that are really amazing than 80 people that you know, are pretty average. And I think, um, just being really, really picky when it comes to hiring is really important. I think, as a recruiter, you naturally wanna be making as many hires as possible cause you get that buzz. Um, whereas I think, um, yeah, you know, one really amazing impactful hire makes so much of a difference for a kind of growing scaling company as well. So you've just gotta be really cautious. Um, and I think the like culture fit piece is a really difficult one to screen for, but really, really important.
Speaker 0 00:11:56 I think we've made a few quite bad misfires at Cleo along the way. And um, I think there are questions that we probably should have asked in the interview process just to really assess whether or not they were the right fit earlier on, um, for, for Cleo. Um, so that's, yeah, I think definitely a learning for me and that kind of culture fit piece, um, when we're trying to really incorporate and look into at the moment. Um, and also just, it, it sounds very, very simple, but just reminding, hiring managers to look at their top performers on their team, look at the traits they have and then use that when you are interviewing for your team, um, incorporate those traits into the interview process. And we've done a big project with engineering recently where they've kind of gone through all of their past hires, picked out the kinda core competencies that, um, people have that do really, really well at Cleo and then feeding that into the, the process, um, as well, I think so, so simple and straightforward, but often forgotten. So yeah, that's definitely been a key learning for us more recently.
Speaker 1 00:12:52 Amazing. And yeah, I think that's a major, it is something that you sort of don't really think about is actually for those hiring managers to, to say, yeah, who are my top performance, who are the people that I want to replicate essentially, or
Speaker 0 00:13:06 Cl
Speaker 1 00:13:08 Person or like, you know, triple them and have a whole team of them. I think another interesting part of that as well is looking at the traits that are like they have, and that you want to find in your next, um, in, in, in your candidates or in your next employee, but also what traits don't they have that may be missing within that team, um, to have that kind of balance of you could have somebody who's super, super process driven and, and that's fantastic, but if you have too many process driven people in a pool,
Speaker 0 00:13:38 You'll never get anything done. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:13:41 Exactly it could come for creativity. So yeah, I think that's a really good exercise to sort of look at, you know, what, what are the traits that you want to, to triple double, um, find and then what what's missing maybe as well. Yeah. And how are you thinking about working the sort of culture fit, um, uh, aspect into the recruitment process? Like, is it through questions that are asked, is there like a stages that you are potentially looking at adding into the process?
Speaker 0 00:14:10 Yeah, absolutely. So I think throughout the pandemic, one thing that we did that was good at the time, maybe less so now was that we had a sort of meet the team session at the end of the process that was loosely related to the three core values that we had and behavioral questions relating to each of the three values that we have at Cleo. Um, but that typically ended up being more of like a vibe check and people were just sort of, um, assessing the, whether or not they wanted to hang out with that person as a friend rather than whether or not they'd be like a, an effective data scientist or engineer for CLE. So I think we're sort of starting to phase those out slowly and kinda maybe doing more of like a cross functional, um, session, especially for like engineering product, um, those kind of core squad roles that we have have at clear where they will have to work with lots of people from different disciplines. Um, and thinking about like the kind of, uh, behaviors that we want them to have, um, like teamwork, collaboration, and then feeding those into and like doing more kind of behavioral based questions, um, in those sessions. So maybe just being a bit more structured in our approach to assessing culture fit and a bit more thoughtful as well.
Speaker 0 00:15:15 Yeah. Just up assessing whether or out with,
Speaker 1 00:15:29 Um, and, um, you've recently hit obviously 500 mill valuation, I think, which is absolutely insane. Congratulations. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:15:38 It is. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:15:39 Yeah. I mean, it's awesome. And, and you you've received, um, pretty significant investment from as well, so obviously huge Testament to, to what you are building and, and the mission at Cleo. Um, what with that, does the road ahead look like from a talent perspective for you? Like, are there ambitions to grow the team? Are you, I know you said, you know, you're really focused on that quality over quantity piece. Like how are you looking to sort of invest following that raise?
Speaker 0 00:16:09 It's a really interesting time for us. I think as you, obviously you are aware, I think we're going into this very tough economic period, this sort of economic downturn, the recession coming up. I think we were super, super lucky to raise when we did just before everything, um, went south. So we are probably being a bit more cautious and conservative on our hiring plans. I think originally by the end of this year, we were hoping to get to about three 10 employees, but it's now more about sort 220, I think. So, um, prioritizing kinda key core roles for us like engineering and data science is sort of more technical roles and maybe just being a bit more thoughtful about which hires we do replace and which ones we don't, but I think we're definitely still going to be growing. Um, but just being really thoughtful about which hires we prioritize over others, I think, um, over the next sort of 12, 24 months.
Speaker 1 00:16:57 Yeah. And that's the savvy thing to do, right? You wanna be prudent when you're looking at that workforce plan for the future, especially with the current climate and being able to say like, no, this role is critical and, and really assessing what's necessary, what skillset are missing, like who is going to help you get it to where you need to be. Um, and looking at that quality piece. So sounds, sounds savvy. Sounds like you're
Speaker 0 00:17:23 Sensible,
Speaker 1 00:17:25 Sensible approach, um, which is brilliant, but it doesn't actually like you did manage to triple your headcount over the last few years, didn't you? Um, but it does, it still sounds like you've done so with not necessarily caution, but a sensibility about it, like a, a bit of, um, you know, you sense like that quality over quantity piece. And, and as I said earlier, still having your, your CEO, your founder involved with that process, it, it shows that you are like doing it thoughtfully. It's not necessarily just growing at all costs, which, um, yeah, a bit of a VC <laugh> at the moment. So, uh, no, that's brilliant. And, um, with that sort of growth that you have seen over the past few years, like, is there sort of a real method or structure or approach that, that you found, um, particularly effective in building the Cleo team? Um, you know, not over hiring, making sure the right people are in the right roles at the right time.
Speaker 0 00:18:29 I think for us really getting the hiring managers to build a strong business case for each hire that they make and being very thoughtful about who they hire and when they hire, um, like, do you really need this hire right now? Or can you wait maybe three, four months to, to get this person on board? I think one thing, because we operate in a kind of squad model on our product team, most of the people that work at CLE work directly on the app itself. So, um, I'd say of the one 70 people that we have currently at Cleo, probably about a hundred or so work directly on the product in, um, kinda cross functional product squads. That kinda squad hiring has been really challenging because timing wise, when we want to launch a new squad, I guess first things first, you need to get a product manager on board, then you need a designer engineers to kind of come on board and trying to time that right has been always really difficult with people's notice periods in the UK in particular, I think three months now is the standard I've I've I think particularly for these more technical positions.
Speaker 0 00:19:23 So, um, really planning ahead thinking about which ones do you want to yeah. Which squads do you want to launch next and which ones are the most important for Cleo? Um, so which kind of, I guess new feature is the most important to land first, um, for the business. So we get a lot of support from our CEO and the commercial teams in planning on which product to go after next. They, they do all that planning. We definitely don't on the recruitment team. And then they feed that back to us and say, we need to build out a score for this, um, feature. And then we'll get to work on hiring the PM engineering and design. Um, so we're close to two new squads at the moment, but it is just of trying to fill those gaps as quickly and trying it, that everyones around the same time, but yeah. Is pretty.
Speaker 1 00:20:08 Yeah. So that is tough because for a squad to sort of launch and start moving forward, you want the whole all pieces there, like all pieces of, of the puzzle. Yeah. Um, I can imagine that is, it's tough to time that, and, and to make sure that you are your, your conscious of timing, but also of that quality side of things as well, and making sure that it's the right people. Um, wow. Okay. A, so you've one squad in place, but actually that, that have your core. And would that get bigger or is it that you it's individual squads being launched each time?
Speaker 0 00:20:50 Yeah, I think, I think some squads will start off pretty small. I think we've got a new growth pillar at Cleo focused on, um, driving organic growth for the, the app. So we've got at the moment it's just a, a VP of growth working on it. Um, maybe a growth lead and a couple of engineers, so very, very, um, kind of thin on the ground, but they're kind of working a really scrappy way, but as we kind of are hiring as much as, as quickly as we can, we're trying to fill some of those gaps, like hiring 'em for a designer right now, an engineer or two. So, um, yeah, we'll start quite small and scrappy and lean and then trying to beef up the spot as we go, as squad gets too big, then we'll split it into two new squads potentially, um, depending on what they're working on. Um, but yeah, that's kinda typically how we, we try and build those squads.
Speaker 1 00:21:32 And then as a talent team, do you split your own team according to each squad? Is it like almost that pipeline approach, like I'm focused on focused on Y or, or is it sort of everyone gets
Speaker 0 00:21:47 So yeah, even even more kind of complex. So each recruit is working on a separate discipline. So we have like Jamie working on products, maybe me helping out on design and we have our tech recruits working on engineering. So kind of trying to orchestrate everyone together and coordinate everyone again. You've gotta, I think as soon as the product manager lands and maybe the designer, then the engineering hiring becomes really high priority just to get those engineers on board as soon as possible. Cause it's no point having amazing designers working on stuff with no engineers to like build it and, and vice versa. So yeah, it can be quite tough
Speaker 1 00:22:21 Theor
Speaker 0 00:22:22 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:22:26 Orchestra, all of the, the talent team who then yeah. Seeking more from companies now more than ever, um, especially around sort of culture comp benefits and something I wanna touch on. Um, at Cleo, you now have, uh, salary transparency for almost all of your, your roles. Is that right?
Speaker 0 00:22:59 Yeah. I think pretty much. I say 95% of our roles. We have free transparent salary bands on the job specs and we've got like a really cool tool called progression that we use with all of our career frameworks for each discipline. Um, some roles that are kind of one off higher. Sometimes we might not have the best like benchmarking salary data. So we maybe won't publish it publicly, but we try and be as transparent as possible. Um, that was really led from our, like our employees directly. I think they kind of asked for it. I think they really wanted to see more transparency, particularly in roles and like engineering, where you have a really big team and lots of people working within the same, um, discipline. So, um, they launched the leveling and the bandings at simultaneously, personally, I was quite nervous about doing that and being so public about salary bandings I just assumed that every candidate would ask for top of banding and it would lead to like really difficult conversations yeah.
Speaker 0 00:23:50 When maybe we weren't offering that. Um, and it's actually been the opposite. I think candidates really value that we're, we're being so open about salary bandings and I think it just makes our, our kind of culture really shine. And I think, um, you know, when you are, when you're discussing salary with candidates, as long as you can be clear as to why you've gone for middle or lower banding. Yeah. Um, they, they really appreciate it. And, and normally it's because we're trying to be fair to the internal team and, you know, once you say that, I think they kind get it and they're, they're completely fine with it. So, um, yeah. I think one learning we've had along the way, I think maybe sort of mid last year, we were probably a bit too slow to rebenchmark our salaries. So we were probably quite a lot lower than what the market was paying in some kind of key areas like talent and engineering, I would say. So I think, um, that's probably one thing I we've taken away and now we're doing really regular, at least annual benchmarking, um, just to keep, keep up with the market. Cause it can just move so quickly and especially in London as well in particular.
Speaker 1 00:24:49 Yeah. That's super interesting and yeah, last year was insane. Wasn't it?
Speaker 1 00:24:55 But, um, no, I think like I was gonna say, what was the driving force behind it, but being your employees, like it's brilliant to have like such a significant and public external change that has been driven by the employee voice. Um, like in the, in the interview process, I'm sure people do value that because it's showing that, you know, you listen to your people, um, you don't just listen and send a survey and forget that you're actually off of the back of the, the, the sort of feedback that you're getting. Um, so yeah, I think that's, that's awesome. Nice, nice stuff. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:25:33 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:25:34 Awesome. And, um, Cleo's consumer, I, I said earlier Cleo's consumer and employer brand, um, is one that's always stood out to me. And I think, you know, not only are you you've harnessed and tech to make the world a better place, but you've also got sort of core pillars for life at Cleo that, that make it just look like an awesome place to work. Um, with those four pillars, like how do you bake that into your hiring process and like bring that to life, um, through the candidate experience?
Speaker 0 00:26:03 Yeah. I, I think for us, it's, we're actually doing a bit of a kind of EVP, like employee value, employer value proposition. That's what it is, isn't it? <laugh>, I'm just trying to refresh that at the moment. I think, um, it's so, so important to speak with specific teams and really listen to them about why they decided to join Cleo and why they're still here. And then, then really feeding that into, um, not just what's in our job specs and on our careers page, but also the way that the talent teams speak about Cleo, um, and higher for those specific teams as well. So I think so we're spending a lot of time at the moment with engineering specifically, really understanding, you know, why people are here, what they enjoy about working here and then feeding that in. Um, it does sound so simple, but I think it's so important, especially for some of our newer talent team who joined, um, in the last six months, I think getting, um, time in, early on with the, the sort of senior engineers who have been here for a long time is, is just really, really integral and, and just so beneficial to, to help with that pitch when you're speaking to candidates.
Speaker 1 00:27:03 Mm. And here I, cause we did a similar exercise at seed. I think it was last year, um, which was super, super interesting, but I, I always, I found hearing how other people spoke about seed and what they liked and why they joined helped to sort of remove some of the jargon that maybe we would up with from a marketing perspective. And especially when you're having like those live conversations with potential candidates, being able to say it, how people, other people say it, I think is really important. Um, and it's sort of, there, there are things that click, like I heard some of our people enablement, layers saying things about why they joined and, and yeah. What they enjoy at seed. And I, it really clicked for me. I was like, oh, OK. That sounds like hearing that real human side of it, um, allows you to yeah. Cut out the jargon that sometimes think,
Speaker 0 00:28:02 Yeah. Sometimes it's things that you just take for granted. I think, you know, one of the big ones that came out was that you can bring your full self to work at Cleo and people love that. And I think, yeah, people just, I think I was just, I never really thought of it that way, but it is so true that you can just really be yourself at, at Cleo. And, um, people just really enjoy, you know, spending time with their colleagues because they are just so down to earth and, and, um, relax as well.
Speaker 1 00:28:24 Yeah. Awesome. And, and for you, what, what would be a bit of advice, um, for someone sort of moving into a head of talent role at a startup at scale up as you have, like, especially with the current economic climate in mind, um, can be a really tough time and, um, quite daunting as well. So I'd love to hear if there's anything that you sort of would, would love to impart or share with your previous self even <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:28:50 I, I think I was really lucky that I think early on in my career, I really tried to make an effort to connect with as many people in talent as possible that I could, like people that were more senior than me, um, going to sort of DBR socials in London and, and sort of really connecting with people. And I think that's really helped me a lot along the way. So whenever I come across something that I am finding really difficult, or I don't really understand, like from an employee law perspective, or just more generally, I've got a, a bunch of people that I can go to just to ask and, and trying to get involved in as many communities as possible. There's loads of kind of WhatsApp groups that you can join. And, um, yeah, DBLs a really great resource as well, just to kind of, um, you know, stand out ideas of people and, and get to know kind of other TA people that are probably facing the exact same challenges that you are as well.
Speaker 0 00:29:34 Um, I think I say particularly now, if you're kind of looking to change roles, just be really, really cautious, really grill those teams on, you know, how the company's doing performance, how they're doing on fundraising. I think, you know, we're seeing so many companies now making layoffs and going on hiring freezes and that, you know, as a recruiter, you don't wanna be working for a company that's on a hiring freeze. It's really boring. So, um, yeah, I think just being, obviously I think people are aware, but just be super cautious, um, try and speak to employees that work there, maybe that you haven't met in the interview process and, and sort of, don't be afraid to reach out to people on LinkedIn and, and get their opinion directly on what it's like to work there as well. I think I was quite unlucky after I joined Carl after I left Carl.
Speaker 0 00:30:17 Wow, sorry I joined another startup. Um, and that was just sort of May, 2020, so a really bad time to be joining a new company. And as I landed there, they went on a full hiring freeze. So, um, I could see the writing was on the wall and knew I had to kind of find something new because I think they were probably gonna make redundant. So luckily found Cleo and it all worked out in the end, but yeah, I think I've definitely learned just to be super cautious, really the team that you're going to join on their company performance and how they're doing, um, and how like their hiring plans as well. Um, for sure.
Speaker 1 00:30:49 Yeah. And even like thought process behind those hiring plans to understand like where, you know, is, is there that kind of deep understanding of why a workforce plan would be that way and like, have they thought through potentially runway and how they're scaling that team? Um, I think as you said, you know, we actually think the talent community is incredible. I think EV and we've got sort of, there's always somebody to lean on or speak to, or a mentor or an advisor and, and people are really open to it as well. Um, probably cuz we are all people, people
Speaker 0 00:31:26 <laugh> yeah. So friendly and outgoing. Yeah. Mostly. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 00:31:32 Yeah. And, um, but yeah, I think we are really lucky cuz there are these fantastic communities that you can, you can lean on. And even when you are looking to transition, I feel like the startup scale up world it's, I mean, it's massive obviously, but it's actually quite small and yeah. You find in conversation that often you've got a link somewhere. So if you are looking to move into, into a new role, a new place, somebody around you has probably heard of seen it, <laugh> experience spoken to candidates from <laugh> from that company. Um, so yeah, I think like, and especially now, like knowing that you can lean on those around you and your community and peers, um, I think that's a brilliant bit of advice. So thank you. And um, for you any pitfalls or mistakes that you've seen made, um, that you'd really tell sort of fellow talent or leaders there to like is thing out there?
Speaker 0 00:32:40 Yeah, I think, um, I think one thing I've learned more recently, often when I'm trying to change and implement the change in a hiring process, sometimes I'll just treat it is I'll try and get it done as quickly as possible with not very much thought, um, into it. Um, but working with I've, I've not had much experience working with engineers before, but now in my new role as head of talent, having to kinda step into that world a bit more, um, and their approach to work is like very thorough. They really go into the detail. Like there's probably more of a generalization, which is not very fair, but, um, I think they've really taught me to take a step back and don't necessarily rush big kind of, um, process changes because I think, um, it's so important to get right hiring processes, particularly for those roles that you're always hiring for those evergreen roles. So, um, yeah, don't, don't feel like you have to rush and get those things done as quickly as possible. It's probably better to take a step back, do it really thoughtfully spend time with the hiring managers and, and really plan it properly and then implement those changes, roll them out, um, in a really thorough way rather than just move fast and breaking it. Just, just take it slow and be thoughtful about it.
Speaker 1 00:33:48 And for you, if you could like wave magic wand, um, and something, when it comes to sort of building and leading teams, what would that,
Speaker 0 00:33:58 Ooh, I wish magically I could get rid of all of our biases <laugh> that would be incredible. Um, I think it's so easy for people to naturally want to hire someone that be just because they worked for an amazing company like MEA or Deliveroo and um, you know, so I've seen people kind of be hired with incredible backgrounds and really not work out, um, in quite senior roles. And that has such a detrimental effect. I can have a really negative impact on a business. So, um, yeah, I think that's, that's probably the one for me that kind confirmation bias. If, if we could just get rid of that and have people be a bit more open minded when it comes to assessing someone's background, just because someone's worked at a really awesome, uh, kind of VC back business, that's similar to you or kinda where you want to be doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna work out for the business. So, um, yeah, that's one, a big one for me. I'd lovely.
Speaker 1 00:34:48 I like that. I like that a lot. And um, just a couple of lighthearted questions to like bring our chat to a close. Um, is there anything that you are super super about? Doesn't have to be, um, you know, professional related can be, that could be professional personal, anything that you just find unapologetic amounts of joy in
Speaker 0 00:35:09 This is awful, but reality TV <laugh> I think my job's so like I find it quite tiring, you know, speaking to people all day as a recruiter, especially now leading a team as well. I'm not got that much management experience, so it can be a bit like overwhelming at times. So at the end of the day, the last thing I wanna do is like be overwhelmed and have to think and use my brain. So just shouting off watching love island main in Chelsea, keeping up with the Kardashians, I'm just, yeah, like really helps me relax and unwind and just switch off. I know a lot of people hate it, but for me, pleasure. Definitely. I love it. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:35:42 A, just one final question to bring us to a close, like, is there a thought or a value or a phrase that you tend to live by or share with your teams?
Speaker 0 00:35:51 Yeah, I, a bit, I think just be kind like, I think I had some pretty tough experiences early on in my career, like in tech and it almost really put me off. I think there were quite a few quite nasty senior people that were not great and it kind of gave me a really bad impression of the industry. And I made me think that to Excel in tech, you had to be a bit of an asshole to be honest. So, um, did, um, yeah, I think that for me was a bit of a, a learning that you don't have to be like that to do. Well, I think kinda comments clear. I've definitely seen some amazing, really inspirational leaders that have like been really kind and warm and not had to be horrible to get results. So, um, yeah, that, for me, I think I try and be nice to people, whether it's a candidate, a hire manager, someone that maybe is very different to me and I'm struggling to work with just, just be kind to them, kill them, kindness, like can't wrong.
Speaker 1 00:36:48 Yeah. I love that there are some experiences out there. We've all, we've all probably met those sort of, um, yeah. Uh, tough characters in the start you off. But it's what I love is I feel like there is this real sort of culture and message of kindness at the moment. Um, and everything that's going on. Like, it doesn't feel as cutthroat. Like it feels like there's this real importance on, on kindness and sort of that, but don't be a Dick mentality. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:37:25 Yeah. Just supporting other you never, what happen to you in the future? If you help someone might help further down the yeah.
Speaker 1 00:37:34 Well you so, so much, Annie, it's been such a pleasure speaking with you and learning more about, about your journey and some of your learnings along the way. I found it really, really insightful and definitely of learning.
