Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:01 You know, I feel like I'm an old founder, but you know, it, it, it's something I do tell, especially younger founders, which is keep your head down, um, and remember that you own your time. And sometimes that means oftentimes that should mean, um, you know, saying no and putting on your headphones.
Speaker 2 00:00:22 Annie, thank you so much for, for joining us on the Scaling So Far podcast today. Um, it's really brilliant to be chatting with you. Um, I'm so excited to be hearing more about column and your scaling journey. Um, so yeah, really great to have you with us.
Speaker 1 00:00:36 Well, likewise, thank you so much for having me on board today.
Speaker 2 00:00:40 Of course. And, and just for our listeners, um, could you tell us a little bit about yourself to kick things off?
Speaker 1 00:00:46 Of course. Um, I don't, I don't typically lead with my credentials, but given that I'm here to talk about scaling and building, I think our, I'll start there today. Um, so I'm, I'm the co-founder and co CEO of coum, which is the only nationally chartered bank that was purposely built to enable developers to build new financial products and services. Um, I will say that my, my journey here is a, a looks a little bit different than the kind of quote unquote quintessential FinTech founder. Um, I, I grew up in Seattle, sort of in the pre-Amazon era. So these concepts of finance and technology, not to mention FinTech, the smashing of the two together were, were both quite foreign to me. Um, through, through a series of kind of happen central events. I, I plopped into San Francisco as a, as a new kind of fresh out of college, um, grad and, and began my career in early stage startups.
Speaker 1 00:01:47 Um, and, you know, after learning how kind of cool it is to, to be given way more responsibility than perhaps your credentials deserve, I I, I knew that's where I, I wanted to land. Um, however, I actually made the decision to spend some time outside of the startup world, um, learning what good looks like before diving into my entrepreneurial journey. So I went back to Stanford to get my mba, um, and spent some time at the consulting firm, Bain, um, working with, you know, the big companies, many of which you've heard of. Um, and, and it gave me a lot of kind of reps as to what it looks like to run or sustain these large established companies, um, in many cases, what good looks like in, in many cases what not so good looks like. Yeah. Um, you know, that said, my, my heart belongs as an operator. Um, so it was really only a matter of time before I left to pursue, pursue this journey. Um, and you know, I I just highlight that because I think there's a sort of a trope that I'd love to dismantle that, that all founders are the, the Mark Zuckerbergs or the, the Evan Spiegels or, you know, the college dropouts, Right? Um, some of us actually studied this art, um, and benefited from that. And I think that too can be quite a differentiator in the industry.
Speaker 2 00:03:10 Mm. Yeah. That's an amazing journey, and I think you're so right, um, in terms of sort of dispelling that trope because a lot of people do get that impression of, okay, you know, young person comes out, has a great idea, gets VC backing, you know, <laugh> tries, test fails, learns, um, does it from a garage, whatever that might be. But actually what you, you know, you, you've studied it and there is an art to it. And actually if you're able to apply that to, you know, your, your then, um, entrepreneurial journey, there's huge benefits to that.
Speaker 1 00:03:46 Yeah. I think, I think it can be very demotivating, right. And I, you know, my goal is to, to fight against that.
Speaker 2 00:03:52 Yeah, for sure. For sure. And pe there are so many different journeys into, into the startup scale up world as aren't there. So, um, no, I, I think that's absolutely brilliant. Thank you for sharing. And, and so you've officially, um, launched Colin, was it this year?
Speaker 1 00:04:07 We officially launched earlier this year. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:04:10 Congratulations.
Speaker 1 00:04:11 Thank you. Thank you. It's about time <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:04:15 So, uh, can you just tell me a little bit about the company's mission vision, what the driving force was behind, um, really launching column?
Speaker 1 00:04:25 Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think I'll, I'll start with the, the driving force piece, um, because I think it sort of plays nicely into kind of the mission and, and the long term vision, um, for, for a column and, and also the industry. Um, so in, in many ways, I will say that my, my co-founder and I kind of grew up with the FinTech industry. Um, he of course as his role as co-founder of Plaid and, and myself by proxy, we kind of in many ways grew up alongside the big fintechs you hear about today, you know, Venmo's, Coinbase bases, chimes, et cetera. Mm.
Speaker 2 00:05:03 Um,
Speaker 1 00:05:03 And I think what that means is we were really, really close to the pain points of building those types of companies. Um, it turns out that it's, it can be quite painful to push an industry forward. Um, back then fintechs were not shiny. They weren't sexy. It wasn't sort of the, the cool kid on the, you know, on the block like they are today. Um, rather I think existing was really an exercise of not getting squashed by legacy financial institutions that were the incumbent solutions, and of course, had no interest in seeing others kind of enter their field and innovate. Mm. Um, and, and one of the main barriers that we kept hearing about was sort of the existing partner bank ecosystem mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, to, because to do what many of these companies wanted to do, um, you know, Chime included, they needed to partner with a bank on the back end. Um, but candidly, to get any of those banks to talk to you, you need millions of dollars in the bank. You need a big team, you need product market fit. And, you know, even once the bank might agree to work with you, the integration could take over a year, um, due to sort of clunky core technology. And when you're a startup, like a year is pretty fatal, right? Yeah. If that's what it takes to launch your product into market. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:06:31 Um,
Speaker 1 00:06:32 Now I think taking a step back, I'm not here to knock the sort of existing suite of partner banks, right? They weren't designed necessarily for this industry. They're, they're full of thinkers, not technologists. So they don't necessarily know how to underwrite the risk associated with a FinTech industry and, and their pipes are outsourced. Right? And so no wonder the integration piece can be so, so clunky. Um, so we kind of thought, what if we take this and, and flip it on it, flip it on its head, and create a bank that's really built not only with the developer in mind, but but truthfully for the developer. Um, and that's our mission today, right? You know, fast forward several years, our mission remains the same, which is providing a safe, sound, stable financial platform for, for innovators to do what they do best, which is dream build, not worry, sort of about what happens on the back end. Imagine what financial tools could exist in the market that don't today, Right? And so by lowering the barriers to entry, we think, you know, there are so many underserved communities and, and customer needs, um, that that could be filled that at the end of the day will really serve the end consumer
Speaker 2 00:07:56 Amazing. So it's just democratizing it a lot more than what it has been previously. Cause as you said, it's so, uh, previously the barrier for entry to that market is so high and so cumbersome and so lengthy that people who are building innovative products and trying to break through, it's a matter of like, do you have a year <laugh>? And, you know,
Speaker 1 00:08:18 Only a few, only a few can break through, right? Yeah. And, um, they're great companies, but again, um, our sort of thesis is that the market's really falsely constrained as a result.
Speaker 2 00:08:29 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I, uh, I like that. And, and really, you started building column, the column product and team back in 2019, obviously launched earlier this year. What's that journey look like for you as co CEO up to this point? Like, how have you approached launching the product and really shaping the right team to do this? And I think as well, doing it in a way that you haven't rushed to launch something like you've taken that time to, to launch it and, and, um, launch it at a time that's right for you guys.
Speaker 1 00:09:05 Yeah. Um, I, I know it is, I still kind of, it blows my mind that it's gonna be 2023 in like, the blink of an eye and, and time, time flies. Um, you know, what I will say is both my, my co-founder and I quit our jobs, um, several years ago with, with the intent of taking some time, maybe doing a sabbatical, you know, maybe traveling, and then, um, covid hit. And so we figured, okay, well we might as well get started <laugh>. So we actually Yeah, yeah, exactly. We began working on Callum a little bit earlier than we actually had initially intended. Um, but I will say that the first, uh, phase is what, what I'll call it, of our journey, um, in many ways emulates more of a search fund or private equity model than sort of the classic first year of startup.
Speaker 1 00:10:00 Um, and that is because, you know, our goal in the first year was to find a bank to acquire and then allow us, you know, get them to let us buy them. Um, and so that was sort of one of those instances where it was quite helpful for me to have, um, a little bit more of a financial and consulting background, cuz I was sort of put on my investor hat for the majority of that, of that time. Yeah. Um, the other focus, um, of that early period was just learning from, um, we always say at column, kind of a first principal's approach. Um, you know, if you sort of like strip all the layers away, like what is a bank? Yeah. Right? Like where does the money sit, What do the people do? What are banks allowed to do? Who are the regulators? Um, like how do you become one?
Speaker 1 00:10:55 Um, you know, we, I like literally joined University Library, so I could take out textbooks on like, like again, sort of like, what is it? Yeah. If you wanted to build it from scratch. Um, so, you know, that's sort of phase one. Um, phase two was when we had purchased the bank, um, but decided not to publicly share, um, until our product was ready to be in market. Um, and so what that meant is we spent over a year in kind of stealth mode, as cringy as that phrase is, Um, because I think it just really allowed us to build without distraction, um, and hire very quietly and just spent all of our time focused on, um, building rather than sort of market dynamics. Um, and you know, I think there are many reasons we wanted to go pub. We were sort of be public hiring being one of them, but, but now that we're launched at sort of our third phase, um, and that is a combination of prospecting new customers and, and making sure that our live clients, um, are successful ones, um, it is a joy to be here. It is much easier to be able to share what I'm working on. Um, but to your point, it was a very methodical and very intentional, um, journey up until this point, um, that we thought through a lot in advance.
Speaker 2 00:12:20 Yeah. And, and that sort of leads me onto the next question, which is obviously you're a hundred percent founder and employee owned, um, profitable already, which is incredible. So big congrats on that front. And it's something that I think is, is not just a great achievement obviously, but it's quite unique in that sort of startup and scale up space. And you've sort of touched on this, but has that approach to sort of stealth mode getting your, your building blocks in place and going back to, as you said, the first principles and growing from there was very intentional. It's something that, that has, has that always been a priority for you in, in founding Colin?
Speaker 1 00:13:00 Yes. Is the, is the answer. Um, you know, I first want to caveat that, um, venture is an incredible model, right? It's, um, responsible for so much of the innovation that we all benefit from, you know, from the, the door dash that brought my dinner last night to the, you know, supplement company that reliably drops off my, my protein powder and yeah. You know, vitamins every month. Um, but you know, I, I think that we're learning, especially in the current macroeconomic environment, that it's not a one size fits model. Um, just like there are many reasons that you might raise from one investor versus another. I think that founders these days should really explore alternate funding models, um, such as venture debt or, you know, potentially bootstrapping based on, of course what is available to you. I think that's just a reality. Um, but also be what best serves your business.
Speaker 1 00:13:54 Um, and, you know, for many reasons, which I can talk more about, I think this is the model we were, we were, um, intent on pursuing from the very beginning. Um, I think importantly when you're venture backed, there is an obligation to pursue an exit that is lucrative for your investors. Um, yeah, of course you're an IPO or an acquisition, et cetera. And, you know, unfortunately neither my co-founder nor I have any interest in running a public company, um, or, or selling this, um, sooner than we wanted to. Our goal rather is to kind of run a profitable privately held company indefinitely. Um, and that that doesn't mean, will not mean hockey stick growth every year. And then, you know, a quick flip. Um, and, you know, I think for us the sort of main benefit there is that we feel really able to make decisions for the long haul versus, you know, sort of a, a quarterly, like, what's my runway next quarter? Sort of what's a metric that someone needs to see? Um, and, and I will say tactically, it also saves us a lot of time, um, that we don't have to spend fundraising that we can spend on the team.
Speaker 2 00:15:07 Yeah. And, and building, building a business the way that you want to as well, it must be like it could, it, what was it at times tempting to look at those alternatives? Or actually, was it just that, you know, this is, this is the path that you are, you're going on and actually you, you were so focused on that and building that you didn't feel that need, There was never really that temptation.
Speaker 1 00:15:31 Yeah, I, I would say I could see how there would be, I mean, it's, it's sort of this glamorous thing, right? Venture and I could see how, um, if you are a first time founder or potentially a little bit like, I could see how that would be really alluring. But I think we have the benefit of, you know, my co-founder already did that dance. And so I think we've, we've seen it and we've seen how it can work so well and change lives, but I don't think that either of us felt sort of compelled as a result to, to do that again. Yeah. Um, and, you know, just kept our eye on the prize.
Speaker 2 00:16:12 Amazing. Sounds like you're staying really true to what you wanted to do and how you wanted to build the business, which is, Yeah, it's incredible. And, um, and for you along the way so far, have there been any big learnings?
Speaker 1 00:16:27 I would say if you ever spoke to a CEO and they said, No, you should run the other direction. Nice. <laugh> uh, every day feels like a crash course. I think both in, um, the industry but also more, um, I think, you know, meaningful for me kind of in terms of people and management. Um, and I'm, I'm super fortunate and grateful for that. Um, a few, I, you know, if you come to mind, um, you know, hiring is the most, most, most important thing that you will do. Um, and so allocate your time accordingly. It's a slog, you know, to find one sort of shiny candidate, you have to kiss a lot of toads or whatever that phrase is. And, um, just making sure you put in the time is, is critical. And on the, on the flip side, once you find those people, um, trust those hires and empower them, you know, delegate down trust that there was a reason why you hired them and, um, um, you know, that will allow you leverage in, in a way that can be super meaningful.
Speaker 1 00:17:35 Um, and the final kind of fun one, I would say is, um, celebrate the milestones. And that's not just the outputs. Like that's not just the deal. That's not just the big launch. It, it should also be, especially when you're building and you don't, don't necessarily have those, I think it should also be the inputs. Like someone completed a really great report or someone caught a bug in record time or you know, the sort of little things. Um, so we always have a bottle of champagne in the fridge just waiting in case there's a need for, We had a spontaneous celebration on Monday. Um, rose was popped, <laugh>, um, and, you know, take lots of photos cause you can't go back in time.
Speaker 2 00:18:15 Awesome. And what were you celebrating on Monday? You're allowed to share?
Speaker 1 00:18:19 Uh, I'm unfortunately not allowed to share, but it was, it was a very important, there's a very important meeting and, um, the team came into the office on a Sunday to prep and dry run and, uh, it went extremely well.
Speaker 2 00:18:31 Good. Well, congrats on that. I'm, I'm really be pleased for you all. And, and so you mentioned earlier you're now in phase I three, um, in sort of your growth journey. Is that right?
Speaker 1 00:18:42 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:43 And so what does that look like for you? What does the road ahead look like, whether that's still phase three or into phase four or, or where else?
Speaker 1 00:18:52 Yeah, yeah. No, I, I would say we're sort of still in this kind of phase, you know, initially, um, it's always funny to say public because it's, we've announced right? It's, we're not, we're not public in that way. Um, but I think right now we're really laser focused on, on two primary things organizationally. Um, first is making sure that our live programs are incredibly successful and running smoothly. Um, I think we probably are overindexing on the resources we're giving to those programs just so we can be absolutely unsure, uh, sure that they're, they're successful programs for, you know, both our, our clients and also for us. Um, I think in parallel we are spending a lot of time looking inwards and building a strong foundation for the future. Um, there are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes when you're a regulated financial institution and we are focused on getting this right because, you know, candidly, you kind of have to, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:19:53 Um, there's no throwing spaghetti against the wall and seeing what sticks. Our world works a little bit differently. Um, and so I think it's, you know, a matter of kind of learning how that works, hiring the right people, building the systems that we need to be able to operate at scale. Because as I have intuited earlier or talked about earlier, you know, it's not built into our business model to scale head count proportionally to our growth or our client base. Yeah. And so what we're trying to do right now is figure out a way to, okay, how can we 10 x our customer base and sort of like, maybe add a few heads but not 10 x our team. Yeah. And so that's really, I think, you know, through a combination of the right people, tools, technology systems, you can get that leverage. Um, but we're being really intentional now about building those blocks.
Speaker 2 00:20:45 Amazing. And that does tie in incredibly with the next question, which is around how you're scaling that team because, um, I think by looking at sort of LinkedIn stuff, you're about 35 talented human strong. Um, is that right? Grown or you,
Speaker 1 00:21:02 You know, we've grown well, so we, um, we are about 70 total. Um, but I will say it's a little bit of a sort of misnomer. Um, about 30 of those folks are, um, are wonderful employees who, um, sit in the Chico in Sacramento Valley area who, um, came to us with the bank that we purchased. So incredibly fortunate to have them on board. Um, but we've hired about 35, 40 to your point. I think that's where you came up that number incrementally to those folks sense.
Speaker 2 00:21:32 Awesome. And, and I read a, a bit of content that, that you shared, which was about sort of not, and ties in with what you've been discussing today is, um, you know, not necessarily, um, building a huge profitable company in your space needing to hire a massively high volume of people. And, and I think we've seen as well, you, you know, some companies are experiencing this hockey stick growth where they are going through hyper scale, and that in that, that translates to hyper scale in team size. Um, but that's not necessarily the right approach, not for everybody. Um, certainly. So I know your, your ethos is to really have that small, aggressive fast team and one that allows you to sort of grow bigger, quick, quicker, essentially. Um, I'd love to hear a bit more around that, a bit more around your approach to scaling the difference that it has to that like hyper growth mentality is really interesting for me. So Yeah, I'm intrigued.
Speaker 1 00:22:32 Totally. Um, you know, I think this goes back to the funding model we spoke about and, and our, our business strategy. And I think if you are operating in a winner takes all environment where speed to market is key, it might be in your best interest to take the largest raise you can get, hire a million sales people, hit the pavement just to kind of get your product out there to up your competitors. So I think, you know, for me, this is really an exercise of kind of like, what is your strategy? Um, and that's just not our business, right? We're a regulated nationally chartered bank, which means a few things. I think, um, there's a competitive moat around our business, which in a way is, um, you know, as long there are a lot of responsibilities that come with being a bank. But that moat is helpful in that it does somewhat constrain our competitive base for us.
Speaker 1 00:23:31 Um, for us, the, the primary differentiator is the quality of our product. And that is not only in terms of developer experience, but also speed of on ongoing implementation and also just fundamental reliability. Hmm. And so what that means in practice is we're very intentional about hiring folks that we, that know what they're doing. Yeah. Um, and bring that lens to the company. And so, you know, I think to answer your question directly, um, for our business, we think that focused approach will counterintuitively allow us to grow more, more effectively because, um, there's a little bit less of the sort of, you know, iteration on a product to see what fits rather than sort of building a very stable sound product from the beginning.
Speaker 2 00:24:23 Yeah, I love that. And, and for you being, um, sort of that, that small powerful team, smaller powerful team, like how does that translate, um, when it comes to sort of company culture? Um, what is your company culture like at Colin, by the sounds of it Rose on a Monday? I'm in <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:24:44 <laugh>. We have a lot of fun. Um, honestly, we were actually really curious about this too when we, when we started, um, there are not many models of companies like ours and, um, we didn't know how easy or hard it would be to recruit and retain people, especially when we were not yet publicly announced. Right. So we sent a lot of really cryptic, um, you know, Hi, I'm Annie. I'm starting something I can't really tell you about in a space I can't really tell you about. Will you talk to me? LinkedIn, um, <laugh>. Um, and it's been super interesting on the, on the recruiting front. Um, I think largely in that it provides a really immediate filter in terms of who may or may not be a great fit. Um, I think that there are a lot of folks who are really focused on, you know, what is the size of the organizational manage, what is my future headcount?
Speaker 1 00:25:41 What are, what's the growth trajectory of the business? Um, and while those folks are probably perfect for that, you know, business I just described earlier, that's not the right, um, approach here. And so, you know, we re recruit folks who are candidly really just excited about what we're building and, um, excited to play a part in that. Um, and I think what we found is there's this incredible removal of ego, um, for those who come, it's not about a title. It's not about sort of anything like, they're just genuinely excited about what they think should belong in the market. Um, Amazing. So, you know, from a a company angle, I think it's really special. I think, you know, from an intimacy perspective, I've, I've been at organizations where on one day you feel like you know everyone and the next day it's like all new faces.
Speaker 1 00:26:34 Yeah. Um, and, um, you know, that's sort of antic that a cult to, to what we look like. Um, I, and I think that sort of built in line with this hiring strategy is sort of from a people perspective, it messages to our team that we really trust them to do a lot. Yeah. And so I think, um, you know, there's, there's sort of a, an investment in our people that, you know, we believe that they can do more than they probably even think that they can accomplish. Um, I often tell my team that churn is not built into our model and, um, we are there a hundred percent successfully now, and it's something that we're really intentional about moving forward.
Speaker 2 00:27:18 Amazing. I love that. And yeah, it sounds like, um, I, I think you've, there's often that inflection point in an early stage company where you do end up, you know, everybody, you've got a certain, there, there does feel like there's this culture and then it changes when you get to a certain scale and it's really hard to keep a hold of that. Um, but it sounds like you've, you've got a real sort of strong core culture and I love the fact that, um, you mentioned, you know, that it feels like there's been a bit of ego removed as well. Um, because also in, in, in smaller companies like you, yet you can stand up for the right reasons, but then you can also stand up for the wrong reasons. So having that real humility and everybody's in it together and, and shooting towards one goal, um, yeah, it sounds like an awesome place to be. And, and, and so when you, when you do hire talent, um, to join your team, what does that look like? Um, as you said, it's all very intentional. It's, um, it is super importantly mis-hires can be really costly, especially in your type of environment, um, and, and have a, have a great impact. So how do you really go about finding and and hiring the right people for Colin?
Speaker 1 00:28:31 Yeah, you know, I, I, I agree. I think, um, hiring the wrong person isn't just neutral. It, it can be actively detrimental to an organization. And so, um, you know, there's a phrase that I've, I've heard, um, which is higher slow fire fast. And, and while we have not had to fire, um, I think the higher, the higher slow is, um, quite wise. Um, so I think, you know, a hundred percent when we were not officially and, you know, live. Um, but also I think for the majority of our hires now, they're result of like targeted outbound, um, outreach. So when I say that William and I spend a lot of time hiring, um, that that means that like he and I hit the pavement, we are the ones scouring LinkedIn to parent networks talking to million candidates. Um, and that I think not only is helpful in firing the right person, but I think, you know, for some of these roles that I've never hired for before, um, you know, a chief risk officer is someone we recently just hired.
Speaker 1 00:29:39 That's a new role for me, me, by talking to a huge number of potential candidates, we were able to really refine, like calibrate what exactly we were looking for and how they would fit to the organization. Um, and I think that's something we try to model to our team. As you know, William and I are no longer the only folks hiring mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so this sort of ethos there is like instead of passively posting something on a job board and sort of hoping folks come like, you go out there and find the best person for that role, like, who do you think is the best person for that role? And then we will do everything in our power to go get them for you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so, you know, a few other anecdotes were, were quite diligent about take homes. Um, I think there's obviously a bias and objectivity point to a take home, but I think it also helps us maintain a bar, um, which can be really, really hard when you really, really need a person, Right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:30:43 To keep that bar. I think, um, I've seen in, you know, I've seen historically moments where that quality can slip when you're desperate to get someone in. And, and that's something that we are quite mindful of. Um, but yeah, I think I mentioned this before and, and you sort of alluded to this, where, um, I think it's often the case in startups where you hire really smart generalists and then you push 'em as far as they can go at a certain point you layer in specialists, there's a little bit of a tur, you know, sort of that whole cycle. And yeah, I think the way we've tried to preempt that is, um, being a little bit more focused on, um, hiring specific tools rather than sort of Swiss army knives from the beginning. Brilliant.
Speaker 2 00:31:30 Um,
Speaker 1 00:31:30 Yeah. But you have to know what you need, right. And that's tricky.
Speaker 2 00:31:33 Yeah. And you have to prioriti be able to prioritize as well, because often the generalist, the feeling of needing a generalist comes in because you think I need somebody to do everything and I've got that pain point and I need them in the door as quickly as possible. Whereas actually being really thoughtful about the exact skills that you need, it will take longer, but it means that you are building out stronger specialisms within that. So Yeah, I totally see that. Awesome. And, and for you, if you could give one piece of advice, um, out of, I'm sure many of the learnings that you've got, um, to anybody thinking about founding or leading a startup, what would that be?
Speaker 1 00:32:16 Yeah. Uh, I would, I would ask yourself why, and then I would call your own bluff and ask yourself that question again and again and again. Um, you know, founding, founding a company is not easy. It is not glamorous despite what some people think. And, um, and it doesn't have that sort of straight, excuse me, career track that, you know, jobs like thinking or consulting, um, offer, which can be really existentially comforting Right. To know. And if I keep doing what I'm doing in five years, I'll be in this role, X, y, and z. Um, so honestly, to do this type of work, you need to just funda fundamentally believe that your product or service belongs in the world. Um, and hopefully, and or but hopefully and, um, feel, feel energized, um, by hiring a team that's smarter than you. Right. In order to do that, um, I actually was, was never someone who needed to be a founder. And I'm, I'm candidly quite grateful for that. As, as you know, there's no ego involved here. I I simply just love solving big problems. Um, and the fact that I got to hand pick the group of folks to do that with me is, is really icing on the cake.
Speaker 2 00:33:35 I love that. And I definitely get that impression as well from our chat is that sort of, you know, you are build, it feels like you're really building the company for all the right reasons and the reasons that will never change, right? Like they're, they're your core principles and your core values. And I think building a a team of people around that, um, and, and with that ethos in mind is super, super powerful. So, and, and on the flip side of sort of the advice, um, are there any like pitfalls or, or mistakes that you've seen made, um, or too often, um, or anything that you really think people should take caution of when it comes to building, um, or scaling a startup?
Speaker 1 00:34:17 You know, I, I do, I think, um, what I'd say here is there is no one size fits all. Um, really every choice needs to map back to your, excuse me, to your, to your business strategy. Um, do I raise a big round or a small round? Do I take a down round? You know, today's sort of the big question. Or do I take on venture debt? Do I do a bridge? Um, do I have a co-founder? Do I start solo? Do I hire in person, Do I hire in remote? So there's sort of all of these existential questions. I think when you're a founder you're faced with and, and candidly, um, starting a company is inevitably gray and really ambiguous. And, and I think something I notice is founders kind of in search of these universal truths Yeah. To hang onto some sort of certainty.
Speaker 1 00:35:12 Like, is it always better to raise from and andresen versus a smaller, more hands on firm? Like, the answer is, there is no one size fits all answer there. It really depends. Um, and so, you know, at the end of the day, you're fundraising, you're hiring, you're go to market, All of that needs to map to your industry, your competitive set in your product or service. And you know, I I, I've sort of spent probably too much time today talking about how our growth plans mapped to our fundraising approach connect to our hiring model and industry in, and, um, you know, kind of that's what I'm talking about here is all of those things need to talk to each other. And so, you know, the piece of advice unfortunately is, um, take a hard look at what you're building and, and trust what you think is the best way to get there.
Speaker 2 00:36:07 Yeah. Like all of those things are mapping, but you've got your core nucleus of what your why and what you're building that, that has to all of your decisions across go to market, commercial, whatever that might be, have to be based on that nucleus. And we had, um, a, a founder of a company, um, called Charlie hr, but here in, in Europe, he mentioned something similar, um, when we had him on the podcast, which was about like, it's, it's okay to seek advice and look for, you know, shoulders to lean on, have conversations, but you've gotta use that as data points. And your job as a founder or a leader is to use those data points and apply them to what you are building exactly as a oppos to using them and going, charging at them blindly, like thinking about how they are applicable to what you are doing. So yeah, absolutely love that. But for you, Annie, if there was one thing that you could, uh, wave a magic wonder and fix when it comes to, to building and leading startups, what would that be?
Speaker 1 00:37:10 Well, if you have one, please let me know, cuz I would, I would be very interested in spending some time with your, with your wand.
Speaker 2 00:37:17 I'll send it over.
Speaker 1 00:37:18 Yeah. Perfect. Um, you know, the, I I, I think two thoughts. Um, the first one is not specific to startups unfortunately, but, um, you know, I'd, I'd emphasize that every person in the room has an equal right. To not only say their opinion, but also pound the table for it. Um, and I think a lot of ideas get lost in time wasted, unfortunately, because we're just not there yet, Right. As an industry. Um, and you know, don't get me wrong, I love when folks agree with me in a meeting, um, <laugh>. But, but the new opinions, the different opinions the employee sort of says, But actually Annie, have you thought about this? That's the way that we stretch. You know, that helps us stretch and that's what we need to keep doing to push our world forward. And at the end of the day, if you hire that person to be on your team, um, you might as well listen to them.
Speaker 1 00:38:14 Um, I think that, you know, the second thing that I'll note is a little bit more specific to startups, um, and that it, it actually relates to the previous point we were just talking about, um, which is that when you're a founder, there's a lot of noise. And I think that that has increased. Um, there's sort of on the one hand, constant pressure to feel plugged in or active on media outlets, especially social media, whether you have like a Twitter presence or something of note, there's potentially pressure from your investors. You know, at the back of your mind you might be thinking about your next round and needing to stay relevant on Sandhill. There's sort of the glamor of a lucrative ex exit and a pull towards spending time with that cohort of folks. And, and all of that noise is so distracting from what you should be focused on, which is like your team and what you're talking. And so, you know, I feel like I'm an old founder, but you know, it, it's something I do tell, especially younger founders, which is keep your head down, um, and remember that you own your time and sometimes that means oftentimes that should mean, um, you know, saying no and putting on your headphones.
Speaker 2 00:39:32 Annie, I'll share a couple of lighthearted questions to, to bring our chat to a close today. Um, first off, I need to know all about your bees, all 8,000 of them
Speaker 1 00:39:43 <laugh>. Yes,
Speaker 2 00:39:45 I'm tell
Speaker 1 00:39:47 Yes. Annie's bees as they've been recently branded and you know, my brain, um, we actually just harvested, they had a very good year. We just harvested 40 jars of honey, um, which is very exciting and I'm sure my friends will be tired of me bringing that to their houses as, you know, my obligatory guest, um, gift. Um, but you know, I I think that my fascination started a while back when, so my, my partner has allergies and um, one of the very sweet things about bees is, um, they only ever fly two miles from their home. And so what that means is that they are just immersed in their own flora and fauna. Um, and going back to allergies, the, the one of the anecdotes we learned is that if you consistently eat local honey mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you will get rid of those local allergies, right. Because they sort of become introduced into our system. Um, so I just love that and kind of got really into it. And, you know, unless you're a baby, honey is a no-no for babies disclaimer. Um, the, the bacteria and honey has all these sort of amazing elixir qualities. It's sort of no wonder that it's been like an elixir of sorts sort of throughout time and literature. It's, it's just a fun hobby of mine.
Speaker 2 00:41:06 I love that. I love that as an outlet as well. And um, yeah, I think of Honey is an amazing gift. That's
Speaker 1 00:41:16 What I'm saying, <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:41:18 For Thanksgiving, <laugh>. Yeah, I love that. And this is a bit of a side question, but do you feel like the, like your kind of that learning about bees and, and their sort of, of ecosystem and that type of thing, has that, have you applied any of that to building column?
Speaker 1 00:41:39 Oh well, you know, I think something that I really love about it is, um, you have to say present. Yeah. When you're in that mode and there is something really beautiful about rehearsing the ability to stay present because time flies so quickly. And I think, um, you know, I think this is why people exercise or why they do certain things cuz it's, it just sort of anchors you in almost like a meditative state. Um, and that's something that I do certainly bring to call 'em, um, and try to be as a leader sort of listening to my people, hearing their problems, not thinking about my inbox. Right. Um, so I think that piece has certainly taken, um, but I think there is really something beautiful to be said about this sort of, um, your, your, your small world can and should be just as beautiful as the wild wide world, um, in the it's what a goal Right. For all of us. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:42:34 Absolutely. Love that. And, um, just a couple more to, to bring us to a close. So is there anything aside from your bees that you're super passionate about that you just find unapologetic amounts of joy in? Whether that's personal or, Yes.
Speaker 1 00:42:50 You already brought so I have nothing. I'm just kidding. Um, you know, I'd say, um, the thing, honestly the thing as cheesy, it may sound that brings me the most joy these days is watching my team prove themselves wrong. I think, um, you know, in terms of what they can do or how much they can accomplish, I like a lot of what we do on a daily basis is the first time and watching someone go from sort of that like initial panic moment to like sort of scrambling and going through the motion to mastery and then really proud of an accomplishment is, um, you know, watching someone blow their own minds is really, is really cool. Um, but you know, on a lighter note, um, my dog comes to the office every day and it's one of those sort of simple pleasures that's a really a joy. Um, yeah, he recently learned how to push open conference room doors, um, which has led to some very hilarious and awkward moments with, with folks on the other side of a meeting. Um, but it just brings a levity that's, you know, um, great on a Monday or a Wednesday, you know, or really
Speaker 2 00:44:01 Definitely dogs bring so much joy and I think as well with everybody sort of experiencing that remote environment and seeing sort of children come into conference calls, dogs walk across the screen and delivery man <laugh>. I think we're all sort of with that boundary being slightly kinda Yeah. Tiptoed over I'd say <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:44:22 Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 00:44:23 With a little tiptoed or like yeah. Push through with a, with a dog and, and Annie, is there a thought or a value or phrase that, that you tend to live by?
Speaker 1 00:44:36 Absolutely and I think, um, they change over time, right? Because the, the sort of phrases that resonate in any given time or values, I think, um, they shift as, as your, as your needs shift. And you know, I think, I think one phrase that's been really helpful for me over the past few years, um, is perfection is the enemy of progress. Um, you know, as a, a recovering perfectionist, um, I am indeed a Virgo. Um, sometimes you just have to start moving. Um, and it's just so interesting cuz it's one of those values that's really drilled into us as kids, but, um, I think, you know, into adulthood, um, perfect is, um, is something that I think actually can cause more harm than good. Um, something I, I, I think about a lot these days, um, uh, in terms of values, um, you know, a fundamental value of mine is that most people want to do their best. Um, and it's just a matter of setting folks up for success. So whether that applies, you know, that applies at work, that applies to the way we treat our friends and family. Um, that, and that applies to me, right? Um, what do I need to be the best manager and friend and partner and dog mom? And, um, sometimes we really need to take proactive steps to set ourselves up for success. Um, and that's something that I'm trying to be increasingly intentional about, um, looking forward.
Speaker 2 00:46:08 Amazing. I love that. And I think it can be really easy in the sort of fast paced world that we all operate in right now to forget that, um, sort of introspective in introspection of how can I be my best? And, you know, you are building a company that you want to be the best it can be. You're shaping your people to be the best that they can be. It takes a lot to stop and then look and yourself and know that actually I need to start with me <laugh> before I can do those other things. So, but it's so important to remember, so Absolutely love that. Um, Annie, thank you so, so much for chatting with us today. It's been such a pleasure and I really love what you've shared about CO and how you're building the company. Um, sounds incredibly intentional and um, and just a really, really special company the way that you're approaching scaling and, and yeah. Having launched just this year, I am so excited to follow your journey as well. I'm sure it'll be an amazing one.
Speaker 1 00:47:07 Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure chatting with you today. And you know, I think about this all day long, so it, it's fun to chit chat about it too sometimes.
