Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 I think as a leader, you have to show vulnerability. Um, because I think that's the only way of bringing the organization to move forward. Hi, everyone here at C and I'm back with another episode of our failing so far podcast on today's episode, I'm going to be chatting with David co-founder on a mission to make daily lives easier by been downloaded 500,000 times. And it's being used by 130,000 active listeners. It was also recently named as a, as we all know, David, I'm really excited to be with you today. How's everything going? Yeah. Thanks a lot for having me. This is a pleasure to be here. Um, obviously we're still in a unique situation. I'm here in Switzerland and, uh, has probably most places up to half the world. The situation is just not, not changing. Um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your story?
Speaker 0 00:01:29 Sure. Um, I mean, my, my background is in business. Um, I've always been, been more on, on that side, um, off of the startup, um, of the startup space. Um, I almost went into, uh, went into studying it, but, uh, I think, um, yeah, the, um, the first impressions really brought me to the other side, um, for better or for worse. Um, and I landed actually, um, a corporate job, um, after, after my studies, which were quite international. I spent some time here in Switzerland, went abroad to, to Bangkok, Thailand, and then, uh, did my masters in Rotterdam in the Netherlands. Um, came back to Switzerland, actually went, uh, to work for an elevator company. Um, and the funny thing about elevator is, I mean, they also have computers built in which a steer, whether the elevator is going up or down, but these computers are like 30, 40 years old.
Speaker 0 00:02:39 Um, pretty much the opposite from any, any, a deep tech company as, as you may call it. Um, and that's probably also what then drove me, um, to, to change my career after a few years. And I went into as many a business graduates into consulting, um, which I think it's great to, to see a lot of different things. Uh, but which on the other hand is not so great if you want to actually do something yourself. Um, but I think, um, during all that time, um, what pulled me closer to finally creating my own company was an old high school friend of mine. And we did create a first online marketing agency together during studies, which we've kind of maintained on the sides, um, throughout my career and the, his career. And he eventually came up one day with, with the idea of a, a new smartphone keyboard made for smartphones and not like the actual keyboard we use that's made for typewriters and somehow made it on to small touchscreens. And I was immediately sold on the idea and saying, Hey, well, it sounds like a huge opportunity to, to recreate something that was made 150 years ago, and it's really not suitable for well for what it's used today. Um, but also because billions of people are using it every day. And I mean, you sign up for it without thinking much about it, then that's how the whole journey started. Um,
Speaker 1 00:04:15 Excellent. And at what point did you think, like, what was the trigger moment, I suppose that made you think I absolutely have to do this. I have, I have to get involved in this company. I have to, I have to get involved in founding this company.
Speaker 0 00:04:29 Yeah. I think it was more gradual. The thing is we already had a company with this marketing agency and that was so we were used to working together. Um, my, my co-founder Ray, Janice, and myself, and then I, we've always kind of looked for a product idea because being an agency it's similar to consulting, you're basically a sell your brain body. Our people call this also other attorney names, but, uh, um, and, uh, the product is you basically build something that then independently, um, off of your involvement, um, creates a value. And that's why I immediately thought, well, it's, let's do this. Um, it's, uh, it, it sounded like a good idea. Um, but it was not directly something that we said, Hey, we do a full time, like by no means does it actually was a long process. Um, we started it where they, um, with a Kickstarter campaign, um, to, to, to gauge, Hey, like I'm interested on the market.
Speaker 0 00:05:42 Um, I then did actually the, in an MBA, which gave me a year of breathing space from my career and a bit more time to focus on it. But then again, I was physically, um, somewhere else in Asia, which again, made it hard to be really involved. Um, and then I came back, we had our first son, which drove me back to my career and pursued us on the side. And I think at some point we just got so frustrated by the slow progress. Um, and at the same time we had users that throughout this let's say prototyping phase, we're still using it even after like two, two years of prototyping. And that really kept me like this flame awake saying, Hey, we have people that still use this thing and say, it's really good. Even though we probably barely had built 10% or 5% of what it should be like grow into eventually. Um, and there was like, well then there must be something. Yeah. Um, and so it's not total garbage, but they're actually people that
Speaker 1 00:06:51 It's obviously a great ID.
Speaker 0 00:06:54 And, and that's then, uh, well that was basically 2019. Um, when, when we decided, Hey, let's do this, full-time now we then both explored ways with our careers, how we could do this, quitting our jobs, uh, versus I, I, uh, took a sabbatical first, which also with a family, I think it's, it's, it's always, uh, I think it's a great way of getting time to like, test the potential and also have a time box because I think the danger with these things, they kind of drag on. And if you don't really like, uh, um, you know, hit the curve, you, you may, you may still believe in it and say, let's give it another month, another month and another month. Um, and it kind of suffers on, and I think at some point you need this also this pressure to say, Hey, we have six months and he needs to work afterwards.
Speaker 0 00:07:52 And I think that also gives your internal pressure, um, to, to, to work in these milestones. And, uh, and that's what we did. So at the end of 2019, we went full time. Um, yeah. Also had just moved houses and, uh, we're expecting our second child. Um, and, uh, we had, we then had six months and, uh, at the end of March it was a deadline. And, uh, yeah, uh, we basically got some, uh, investor commitments, um, towards the end of March. And then I quit also my job for, um, for good. And that's then how the whole journey really started now.
Speaker 1 00:08:30 So it's been a bit more of a slogan perhaps than a sort of, you know, triggering moments, which, you know, potentially that is a really good thing because as you've described really eloquently, it gave you the time to, to figure out all the steps along the way and get some user feedback and user input. Um, and, and obviously the fact that they were using it gave you the confidence that it was still a really good idea, which is, um, which is a great trick, combine them
Speaker 0 00:08:56 In a way I think the danger. Yeah. I mean, the danger is that you, you never do it, um, or that, um, often with things you have the window of opportunity, um, and if you wait too long, um, you may just reach the end of it or he may even close. Um, but then even looking back, so I sometimes tell myself, Hey, we should have started this earlier, but then even, I mean, we had, the first initial idea was in 2015, but even den, it was already late to, to like get easy funding for an app say now, because that was like, that was always the beginning. What, when I had little talks with potential investors, not too serious because I was still working full time, but then we were always told the writing back then, Hey, it's just an app and what are you going to do afterwards? And you can build a business out of this. Um, so I think we would have needed to be much earlier, like 2012 or something, um, to just come in with an app Oh, right here, like 5 million. But I think that time is long past. Yeah. I think you need to show much more than that.
Speaker 1 00:10:12 A solid, solid idea with that with a plan. And I think that very much leads my next question, which is for you and, and for your team, what is the mission and vision, um, for type wise and where do you want to go next?
Speaker 0 00:10:27 No, no, it's a fair question. Um, and we went through a big vision mission finding phase over past three months, I would say. Um, so we also worked with, uh, with an external coach, um, on that great thing here in Switzerland is that, um, we have a government funded startup support program. Um, they don't give you cash, but they give you vouchers that you can use for accredited coaches. Um, because usually you wouldn't spend money on coaches because I mean, you cannot hire,
Speaker 1 00:11:10 It feels like an extravagance,
Speaker 0 00:11:14 But often they bring in value. At least maybe the first couple of conversations, you'd get a lot of new ideas and expertise. And with these vouchers, that really was a great way of, of working with, um, different experienced people along the way. And, and the one of these, um, touch points was with, uh, with a branding coach. And he really kind of forced us through this discussion process. Where do we want to go? Because we had, I mean, initially was my co-founder and myself, and now we are 11 people. Um, and, and that happened over the past half year. So we two people in June and, uh, in November we were like 11. Um, so, and obviously people join you, um, and we are telling them the story, but, uh, yeah, you lose, um, pieces or messages in, in this communication. And then everybody has a different vision of what the company stands for.
Speaker 0 00:12:16 And I think it's very important to then bring everyone back in the same page. Um, and I think so, yeah, it really came down to the beginning, um, of why, um, Janice and myself started this, which was, we were inherently unhappy, um, or even frustrated with dealing with this smartphone keyboard. And it's not just a smartphone, keyboard is also our keyboard in general. And it's also not just a keyboard, but in general, um, if only computers could understand or thoughts, you would not need 50 clicks or type 200 letters to do something, but he could just think it and it's done. And sometimes it's not a very complicated, like idea you have, or like request you have like an airline ticket from Azuri to learn, but I need to open the browser. I need to enter a URL. I need to enter Zurich. I make a time book and it gives me something else and like SOC rep, and then I, uh, yeah, and then I it's the wrong date then the pay, I don't know.
Speaker 0 00:13:32 And so suddenly you have dozens of interaction elements for a very simple question. Um, and obviously the keyboard is very critical in the process because it's one of the most important say interfaces. Um, and that's why we started with this, but our, but our vision that really came down to, and that's what you, I, I think said at the beginning, uh, make our data lives easier because we do spend hours with our devices. We do spend hours inputting information, um, and it only that piece could be more convenient because consuming information it's super convenient. Netflix, YouTube, Spotify consuming stuff is super easy, but, um, producing stuff like, especially in formation and I'm not meaning taking pictures in the record videos, that's also easy if you're looking at a tech talk, but, uh, but producing this interactive, um, information, that's, that's very cumbersome still because it hasn't changed.
Speaker 0 00:14:34 And that's really at the core of why we start a type wise. And that's also where we want to go. So the keyboard, um, if you ask, where are you going to go? Um, the keyboard is obviously one step on this. It's the product we have now, but the AI technology that we're building in it, which is what we call a text prediction, AI, which is basically looking at all the data points that you generate on the interface. So be it tapping on keys or tapping on a touch screen with virtual keys, or even talking over like through a microphone and generating voice data, um, that data we use to try to try to, we call it decoding your thoughts, basically understanding what do you want, and then translating this into digital information, which at this stage is text and that's what you see on the screen, but in the future, it could directly lead to actions. Uh, if, if I think, yeah, like book me a flight, I don't need the text intermediary to fill out form fields, but it could directly trigger, um, the booking process. Um, and I think that's really our vision of where it is, where, where it is, will lead to fundamentally changing the way we interact with our devices.
Speaker 1 00:15:57 And based on how far this, this part of the technological growth and expansion and disruption of the world is as coming in a, in a short time, it seems like you guys really have hit on something that is changing the way that we interact with, as you say, the devices and, and the different platforms that we use to consume information and consume content. Um, but I'd love to bring it back a little bit just to the cane. You mentioned something before you, you mentioned earlier that you've gone from being just the two of you to being 11 of you in less than a year, really, in a matter of months, I'd love to hear it from your perspective, what your approach was to constructing or building your team. Um, how did you go about that? What quadruple quintuple, the size of the company in six months, that sounds like, uh, a journey. And then you must've had a, had an interesting approach to doing that. Maybe you didn't maybe what I'd love to hear it though.
Speaker 0 00:17:01 We did try a few things. Um, and I mean, I, you know, I, I believe you need great people. I think that's, that's the key. Um, maybe that's something I took, you know, I took with me from, from consulting where, you know, in a strategy for which prides itself of hiring on, you know, that one, 2%, um, we did have great people. Um, and usually you explain, you explain it once to maybe a more junior employee and the person just gets it and you don't have to explain it 20 times. And this is nice. Um, when you're scaling,
Speaker 1 00:17:50 It's important that you can be agile and you can be quick. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:17:52 Absolutely. So that was for us still very important. And I think so the tough part and yeah, I mean, we had a couple of learnings, so maybe we can go team by team because we have three different teams. We have an AI team, which, um, very smart people that, um, it's very unique, uh, because we need, let's say a top engineers with X, like with language and machine learning expertise. And there, um, I think we need to do, we needed to do a European wide search through, um, the university that we collaborate with here in Switzerland, the federal Institute of technology in Zurich, which is like Swiss MIT, um, at that brand named helped us to attract, um, I mean, first of all, they have a big pool already of students, PhDs graduates, um, and second also their brand name and their platform attracted significant external, um, applicants that would, I mean, we probably could wouldn't have been able to reach them with our means.
Speaker 0 00:19:10 Um, and there, we also leveraged expertise from our professor and his team to perform the technical side of the interviews. So we looked at like cultural fit and motivation, but we said, Hey, we have no idea how to, I mean, my co-founder is obviously also, I mean, he developed the first version of the AI engine, but he doesn't have 20 years of, uh, uh, tries to get a lot. But like, uh, it has been around for that long, the latest technology, but still, um, like he doesn't have years and years and candidates and the candidates. And they're, I think using such a, third-party like a professor was work with a lot of PhDs who can maybe very quickly say, okay, this guy's comparable to my top PhD, or he's worse than everyone else in my department. Um, that was super helpful.
Speaker 1 00:20:04 And before you move on to the next team, I do just want to highlight that point because I think that's something that is, um, perhaps miss, um, in some of the other folks that we've been speaking to as part of this series is to bring in experts to help, you know, and, and it sounds like you, you and your co-founder have a really open and honest approach to, this is what I know, and this is what I don't know, I'm getting it a brand coach getting in that professor to help you through those interviews. I mean, it's going to help kind of be with some of the decisions that you might make. If you're, if you're building a team, we still can experience that. You're not necessarily positioning yourself. So, you know, um, for thinking to do that so early on, because a lot of others don't, so yeah, really good. So
Speaker 0 00:20:48 That was one, one approach, um, for the, um, developer team dare, well, we had two decisions to make, first of all, where do we hire people? Um, because Switzerland is very expensive. Um, and you see different approaches. They are, I've spoken to startups who have their entire tech team here in Switzerland. They bring them all in from, from abroad, um, which is expensive. And in, in my view, um, at the beginning, it's very risky. So what we are doing, we have a hub in Belgrade and Serbia sort of raid people that went through, you know, master's degree, um, and, uh, have work experience as many years as, as developers. Um, and there, um, we also utilized then help off a developer. We, we know there and we regard very highly who then helped with technical interviews. Um, so he, I mean, I was part of sometimes the centuries.
Speaker 0 00:21:54 I had no idea. He asked about memory leaks and so forth. Uh, but he then was quickly able to say, okay, um, this guy is great. Or this guy, even though he had 10 years experienced and see, you know, uh, um, so that was very helpful. These it's very hard and cultural fit. I finally had always, I think for me as a, yeah, I'm more used to interacting with, let's say the business side and on the developer side, what I found is that not everyone, but with, you know, with some, having a very long, let's say, um, discussion about company culture and so forth, did not provide me with a lot of insights. And I think the technical part was much more insightful and to saying, Hey, this the right guy and, and, and this distance, um, and this also kind of proved true, um,
Speaker 1 00:22:55 And setting up a hub in a country, aside from where you might physically be mayor a year or two ago, been kind of weird and kind of unusual and kind of unique. But as we know now, the way that things have changed over the past year, everybody's working out new ways of connecting with each other and building culture and building teams across geographical or other, or other divides. So, um, you've obviously had the opportunity to experience all of that firsthand as well, and no doubt that distance quite so far anymore.
Speaker 0 00:23:29 Yeah. Although I think, um, I'll like off or, or near shoring, um, developers yeah. Has always, that was probably the first category and, and of course cost centers. Um, those two were probably the first two categories kind of, uh, near off shore anyway. Um, what was more unique was than on the marketing or growth side. Yeah. There, you were very unsure, um, how to, how to do it. Um, we had the option of saying, well, I do it, which I kind of did with the help of my co-founder at the beginning. And like a year ago, we didn't know how much work it would be, um, to grow because yeah, you could also argue, well, um, you don't need 10 people to grow an app it's super scalable. Um, we then thought we could hire a junior person, like the way it was used in my consulting work and very smart guy who learns from me and then gets his own stuff.
Speaker 0 00:24:33 And he does his research and speaks to other people and then quickly builds the knowledge. Um, we then thought of hiring a senior person who has the knowledge, um, or the option was also to work with an agency and say, well, it's, it's scalable. We have clear metrics. Um, and it's performance based and, and they do it because maybe you need a range of people. You need people with social media, with analytics, um, with creative, uh, PR. So it's a very broad field and can even find that single person that does it all. And so that was a bit, the range of options that we had. Um, 10, 10 months ago were pretty much last April. Um, and we then test a lot of things. We put out different job ads, um, almost the same description, but changing, made that a title from a head of marketing to a social media trainee, to a head of growth, to a growth hacker.
Speaker 0 00:25:35 We use mainly LinkedIn ads, um, because they were very effective in driving quickly. Well, we tried a lot of things. We tried the university job boards in Switzerland or different startup communities. We posted it there. Um, but LinkedIn was the most, let's say quick, very cost, like cost effective. We try different locations, Zurich, Berlin, Berlin. Um, um, we tried, I think Barcelona, Amsterdam, like a bit domain tech hubs in central, I mean, in Western Europe. Um, I don't know if he tried London, um, maybe, uh, maybe it was a bit, we felt there was a bit too far. I mean, too far away. Uh, we wanted to have it physical. Um, that time it seemed like the, the lockdown here was a seven week period, and then it's probably over, um,
Speaker 2 00:26:36 We call that one,
Speaker 0 00:26:39 We saw a lot of value in having that person. He's almost a co-founder from the role, it's a very broad role, um, to, to be here with us. Right. That was the initial thoughts. So we had, I think over 400 applicants, um, some, I mean, you could almost auto filter, so I didn't have to, um, interview four people. I think they had 20 to 30 interviews even yeah. Even ended a head Hunter from the UK that also supplied us with, with ideas. So he's really very broad approach. Um, and ultimately, um, we decided to following, and I again use an experts, um, to discuss this. I, first of all, used my board of directors to have an interview with, with two candidates at the end. Um, and I also spoke to the head of recruiting at my former consulting firm. And I said, look, you have done thousands of interviews.
Speaker 0 00:27:35 Um, and you've hired very senior people. This is my situation. What will you do? And what we did in the end was hire a senior person that we found through angel list. So angel list, I can highly recommend him. Yeah. That's something we use quite a bit as well. Yeah. That's great. I don't know. At least for me it was a hidden gem. It's not the obvious thing you would use for recruiting. And it seems if you don't know it, it might seem a bit not dodgy, but just not. So yeah. Well, well received, well, you there. Yeah, but actually very good. A very, a candidate. So we found our, our VP of growth, uh, from, from there. And he previously was the head of marketing at Uber eats for Russia. Um, and that's how we came. Like we happened to open a second or like a third location in Moscow.
Speaker 0 00:28:29 Um, and then we decided for a junior person, um, where we had, uh, uh, a bit of an experimentation, but we also found, found someone now who then by chance also turned out to be Moscow. We thought, uh, I mean, he's German. We thought he's located in Germany. And it turned out that he also lived in Moscow, which we also have been. So it actually makes a lot of sense. So we have now the marketing team, um, in, in Moscow and, uh, even a third person that came in, she's a, uh, a high school student and we thought, well, there it's low risk because it's not it's part-time and it's also not like a super senior salary. Um, so we, we could also, um, like afford us resources. And now we have a quite interesting team set up and there've been, the approach was at the senior person a there, we need to be very sure that's why I did this huge approach. And on the junior side, um, we can maybe take one or like one risk here or there, because in the end, it's the senior person that keeps the constant, you know, the constant. And if on the junior side we have maybe change here or there. Um,
Speaker 3 00:29:46 Is there a myth David that you think needs busting when it comes to building a business or, or, or a team specifically for a business, something that perhaps you've heard in the past that you think is absolute BS and we need to debunk today.
Speaker 0 00:30:05 Good. Yeah. A good question. Um, honestly, I, I don't have something on, on my mind right now. I think what, what I've heard once, but I do think it's, it's true that, you know, there are 10 X developers versus the one X developers, and this is probably true on any, on any level. It doesn't have to be just developers. I think you have, um, yeah. People that just bring you forward. I think it's, yeah. I don't know if it's, you know, if 10 X is the right number per se. Um, it sounds like a lot. Um, and I think it's maybe also not fair to say this person is a 10 X and you are not, but I think it's always the constellation also within the team. Um, and yeah, I think you have to try it, um, and what I've actually heard, and that's not a myth, but it's actually very good advice from a founder here in Switzerland who, who operates a, um, it's a, uh, like talent met like recruiting platform quite, quite large. So he also sees a lot of, uh, um, like a lot of, um, uh, positions, fields he says, but like hire quickly, but also fire quickly. And I think, I think that's a very, very important one. And, um, I think that's something, um, maybe, maybe it's, uh, you know, my, my Swiss, um, my Swiss, uh, uh, yeah, and like, I don't even know how to say it, but
Speaker 3 00:31:54 Sensibility or my Swiss pragmatism or my Swiss national.
Speaker 0 00:31:59 Yeah. Maybe, you know, being, being kind to everyone in a way, um, or staying neutral. I don't know that, uh, um, w you know, it's, it was difficult at the beginning to say, Hey, is a person the right one or not. Um, and I think that's something I also had, um, like had to learn. Um, and I think usually that decisions were also made for me, uh, you know, once a once in a while. Um, and then I usually realized, Hey, um, I just have to get better at like, seeing those situations. Um, and, and just, um, I think calling them out quick quickly, or, uh, yeah,
Speaker 3 00:32:48 I think it's such an important point that you make it, um, from having spoken to, and worked, worked with many early stage companies and, and, um, and even later stage companies for that matter, but obviously when you've made the decision to give someone a job, you feel some degree of responsibility for making that decision for that person, their life, uh, as much as anything else, but often in those situations, you're not really doing them any favors either if, you know, people aren't working out for whatever reason, trying to put a square peg into a round hole, like it just, it just won't work out. So, um, it's a really valid point that you make about, about hiring quickly and firing quickly also ads, one that you've actually talked quite a lot about today, which is, um, you know, sometimes potentially in a, and you're a founder on not that potentially as a founder, you might think, you know, all the things and have all the answers and know all the questions and, uh, and, and you know how to make all of the decisions. And it sounds to me like you've got a really smart group of people and advisors and helpers, and that around you, um, in all of these different examples that you shared where, you know, perhaps one of the, one of the myths Sydney's debunking is that as a founder, you know, everything, or you have all of the answers and you, it seems to me like you genuinely do believe and, and seek out advice where you need help. So, um, definitely something worth calling out as well.
Speaker 0 00:34:12 Yup. Yup. Absolutely.
Speaker 3 00:34:14 And then as you look towards the rest of this year, um, what's on the agenda apart from hopefully being able to go and see your face, you're focusing both, right. And you folks in, in Moscow as well. Um, what's the rest of the plans for type wise for this year? What are your big priorities?
Speaker 0 00:34:29 Now? We actually do need a physical team meeting. So like a lot of my colleagues I haven't met once in my life. Yeah. And that's, um, yeah, we've tried a couple of times, but always had to postpone, you know, even stop, uh, stop, uh, giving a date. Um, I can empathize with that. So let's see. Um, but apart from that, um, yeah, I think one, one milestone obviously is to crack and that's a more short term is to crack the 1 million downloads and marks, or by now we're at 700. So at 40, 45,000 as of yesterday as well on track. So this is, this seems actually well on track. Um, I think it's nice to, as I look back a year ago, um, when we launched the app in December, 2019, and really, and we had, I think, after the launch about 50,000 downloads. Wow. And, uh, yeah, but I was super unhappy because we felt, um, we had good coverage.
Speaker 0 00:35:37 We had good PR coverage here in Switzerland, like national news, both print and digital in two, three, um, outlets. And it was quite, I think it led to maybe 20,000 downloads. And you could say you potentially reached like a million people and this didn't seem like a great if you put it that way, um, it didn't seem like this super amazing launch, even yes. You say, Oh yeah, that's a big number. Yes. But we thought it could be much more. I remember I said, Oh, maybe we, even, if it goes super viral, then maybe you get even like a million downloads and this didn't happen. So we had a, um, it was not a crypto winter. It was like a type wise winter. Um, January was really bad last year. Uh, it was two of us. No, no investors wanted to come through. The downloads really dropped the thing. We only have 5,000 downloads in January and we're like, Oh no. And it's just, we didn't have any cash left. It was really bad. But, uh, luckily kind of for the right things happened,
Speaker 3 00:36:42 What would it be if you didn't have some ups and downs, you know, that's where, that's where you learn as well. You, you, you know that too. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:36:50 They fluctuate very like quickly, quickly. It's even one day great. One day knock right. One day. Yeah. And it really often, it's what I mean, it's really hard. One thing is maybe how they, the last meeting go of today. Um, and you could have a good day, but the last meeting is like a downer. Then I kind of feel it that way. And it never had to, in my previous jobs, it was usually there. We had good, usually good weeks and there were 80% good weeks because it was kind of, it was a machine that was going. And if you performed within that machine, the outcome was predictable. Um, but now it's, you're, you're very dependent on external events that I can sometimes influence. I mean, I reach out to prospects or investors or journalists, and maybe I get the good lead back that turns into something. And then this is a great day and whatever. So that's really hard. And the other one that's also really hard is not to check your, your messages late at night.
Speaker 3 00:38:00 Particularly you have a, you have a young family and you've got to be all the, all things to all people. So, yeah,
Speaker 0 00:38:07 It's hard now because my personal device is my work device and, um, everyone is online all the time. Um, and yeah, it's the danger of exchanging messages, or you maybe just want to have a thought, but then you get a reaction back to your thoughts from your coworker. And maybe it's not the thing, or it's your react, your messages misunderstood, uh, because it's already late at night,
Speaker 4 00:38:38 10:00 PM. So
Speaker 0 00:38:40 They start a conversation at 10:00 PM and you don't want to, and then you go to bed and this kind of, uh, um, ghosts to bed with you. And I found that really, this is something I still struggle with. And I hope it will get better over because this is not something I can do for 10 years. Like this is not a situation that, that, um, it's, it's fine at the early stage. I think it's how it is. But, but eventually you need this more constant like this Constance in also in your emotions. Um, yeah, I mean most, I guess, but, but anyway, coming back to T2 the objective side. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's the 1 million download. I think that's, that's a critical milestone for us. Um, obviously, um, we're launching now a new version of the app, um, topic wise three, which is coming out in mid March.
Speaker 0 00:39:41 So stay tuned for that. It hasn't completely new, um, audit correction technology, um, which outperforms like a Google keyboard and the, and, and, and, and the Microsoft Swift key. So I think this will be interesting. You can type in multiple languages at the same time and a user slang and dialect and whatever. Um, and then it's working on the next big product increment and there, we're still obviously looking at what makes most sense. Um, we're working on these texts, predicts like texts, prediction, uh, piece, and the question will be, how good does he get? How much in, like, how much of the sentence can it complete accurately? Um, and if that's quite accurate, it could have a fundamental impact on how the keyboard looks like, do you still need to press letter by letter, or could the keyboard turn into something else where you become much faster and maybe providing entire sentences with, without in the end dictating a letter by letter?
Speaker 0 00:40:48 What do you want to say? Um, but we believe, um, also looking at open AI, which obviously seems, um, at least in the press very sophisticated. Um, I mean, there are also voices from that corner. Uh, and I think she got fired over it from, from Google for, for, for, for, for being critical that these large language models are not practical and they don't work actually in situations. So we will see where the journey leads us to, but we're also, I think how the product looked like is a bit dependent on how good the underlying AI technology performs and what is possible,
Speaker 3 00:41:34 What is, and like I said, when we kicked off this chat earlier, how far this has come in, such a short amount of time, you know, by, by technological development standards. I think you guys have got a huge Greenfield in front of you as to how this can develop. And I'll just reiterate for anyone who might've missed it. You mentioned that the new version type wise three is coming out in mid-March and that's available to download on all of your usual app downloading platforms, mainly I think Google play and, or the Google store, and obviously Apple app store as well. Cool. Couple of closing questions though, for you, David, just to, just to round out this conversation and thanking you again for your incredible honesty and authenticity in the way that you've answered the questions. I think it's always way more fun when I talk to people and they tell me how they, how they genuinely feeling and thinking, particularly over this last little period. Um, is there anything that you are unapologetically passionate about maybe mildly obsessed with it can be anything lighthearted or serious, anything that occupies your brain?
Speaker 0 00:42:45 Yeah. I think it's really this, this a startup, which is occupying my brain. I D I just spoke to another founder who was, uh, a couple of years ahead. And he also said, yeah, this is it's, it's really, it's something that occupies you all the time. And I sometimes would like to get rid of it. Um, but it keeps coming,
Speaker 3 00:43:05 But like a Groundhog day or a do over day or something.
Speaker 0 00:43:08 Yeah. But it's, it's, it's really, I, yeah, I think I have to be careful that it just, all the don't don't know, um, the people around me too much by having dinner conversations, always coming back to how did that meeting go and what I have in mind here and, and, uh, yeah. Um, so, so that's, so that's the thing. Um, and yeah, I think, but on the other hand, what I also enjoy is sometimes really, uh, working, working one-on-one, um, with, with, uh, our like, or like with my coworkers, which I don't do that often, because my role is really externally facing, I mean, what we're doing now as well. And I don't know, I'm probably talking to 10, at least 10 new people every week that I haven't spoken to before. Um, and that's interesting, but it also gives me little time to spend with my own team, which then is more, more my co-founder as a CTO.
Speaker 0 00:44:12 He's obviously managing all the product and tech team and the marketing, as I said, we have to senior person who kind of keeps like, can work independent with, uh, um, with the team. But I really then sometimes also enjoy spending, I don't call it quality time, um, working maybe on nitty gritty things like, uh, turning around, like talking about what is the best sentence for like this advertising or which word should we use, or, uh, talking about like, really about the product, that product designs, even though it's not my expertise, but it's sometimes nice to just, uh,
Speaker 3 00:44:49 Being involved
Speaker 0 00:44:53 The brainstorm ideas, um, because yeah, with the team, then those ideas actually also get realized. Um, if I brainstorm with external, with externals, that's great, but then those ideas land on my plates are not going to work, do my job, so I have to do it. Um, which yeah, I always speak to advisors and, uh, and the senior people that's great, but it just, you end up with more to do. And I think with the team at least gives me the chance of maybe saying, Hey, he could do this.
Speaker 3 00:45:28 You can pick that up. I think, I think it's a common challenge, David, from, from having spoken to many people in your position that you w you want, you, you know, start finding that balance between how much time you spend facing out wounds versus facing inwards. And yeah, I don't have the answers to what that exact ratio is, but, but no doubt, it's something that everybody's trying to try to balance. Yep.
Speaker 0 00:45:49 I had a, I had an interesting advice once from, from another, well, he said he created his own VC fiber, small VC fund here in Switzerland. And when he does, he always, he divides this by mornings and afternoons. So he says in the mornings he works, um, proactive or proactively. And so he doesn't take calls or anything, but he initiates new things or works in his ideas. And in the afternoon he works reactively. And then basically he has calls and meetings where he gets pulled into. Um, I found that very interesting. Now it's an interesting, I say interesting because I think if you, well, first of all, people in different time zones, um, and if you have people that are, you know, where you are, what you want something from them, they dictate your timeline and you can play just horrible and say, well, I don't care. This is
Speaker 3 00:46:48 The timeline only available in the afternoon. We'll fine.
Speaker 0 00:46:50 You can try. Maybe it works. Yeah, I haven't. Um, but I, uh, but I do, I started sometimes postponing meetings. Um, when I see this week is getting too full now, I feel I'm taking, I, I become more libertarian and just telling people, Hey, can we just, we scale this to next week. I don't like, yeah, I don't have the time. Otherwise your, your calendar gets overloaded. And then I don't have these, I some, I also have things to, to obviously work on and you maybe need two hours here, two hours there. And if you always run from meeting to meeting at the end of the day, you didn't do anything
Speaker 3 00:47:31 Just been in meetings. David, that is definitely something that I can understand myself as well. Um, and speaking of time, I want to say, um, thank you for making the time to speak to us today. I have one final question, um, that I'd like to ask before we close. And that is obviously as someone who's worked in, um, and you did say it was an elevator company. It's a world famous and probably one of the biggest elevator companies in the world, if not the biggest. And, and obviously you've been in touch with loads of fascinating people over the last period while you've been in consulting and then founding your own business. Is there a particular leader or for other founder out there in the world, someone we know someone we don't know that you found to be particularly inspirational as, as a guide for you?
Speaker 0 00:48:14 Yeah, actually I had two, two people. Uh, one was from Schindler. Um, his, his name is Greg Irwin, Brian, he's the president of Schindler in the U S and I had to the opportunity to work with him. Um, and while he transitioned to becoming CEO. So I also saw how he, how S like step into that role. And obviously his organization is 5,000 people. Um, so it is quite large. Um, and what I really enjoyed is like the, like the, the, the serious, like that he was very sincere about this role. For example, he went to visit all fields offices or 65 of them, I believe, which is a big, huge, huge commitments. And, um, that, that was really great. And, and, and then I remembered that I had, like, I did more strategic projects, like as a, you know, like a desk job. So I didn't work on the elevators per se.
Speaker 0 00:49:17 Um, and I came to him with his, uh, you know, proposal to, uh, I think he was, uh, um, like a coaching program for, for managers, because that's what something we uncovered that would be beneficial for the organization. And then he said, look, David. And they showed me a list of like 20 items. And he said, these are all proposals that have reached my desk and they're all good, but I, if I do all of them, the organization will stand still. So I have to, I can pick maximum three. Um, and then we have to do those three. And then we see again, what we do next. And that really, I think was, it was just great to see this in action because I understood where my project stands and, um, how I felt it was important. And I gave me very much insights into the, like the decision-making, uh, of someone that has, did this very larger like organization. And, uh, and also just stepped into that role. And, and
Speaker 0 00:50:21 You could all say, yeah, we do a lot of things because I want to please everyone. Uh, of course the salespeople want this, the other people want that, and I should do everything because then everyone is happy, but then probably nobody's happy because it just doesn't work. And that was, I think, a great sign of leadership for somebody that he kind of stood up and said, this is what we do. Um, and you make yourself obviously very vulnerable because he didn't have 20 years experience as a CEO. He was also to the company fairly new, still. You're very vulnerable if you do that. Um, but I think as a leader, you have to show vulnerability, um, because I think that's the only way of bringing the organization and, and the, and the group forward. Excellent. And who's the other one? Yeah, it's, it's, it's very different.
Speaker 0 00:51:09 Um, he's a, like a partner from, from a booze and company. Um, all of our cur he's, uh, what I really enjoyed about him is that he's like the digital leader for, for now PWC global. And what I really liked about him is he, he always spoke so quickly and he had this massive flow of ideas that it was very hard to follow him. So in five minutes he would give you like a one hour pitch. Um, but I just felt, it was amazing how, how sharp and how, um, you know, the, like the ideas were also also in meetings. He was, he was just super quick with everyone. Um, without really being like pre prepared, he didn't prepare for it. It was just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I felt it was super impressive. Um, because then yeah, you have a lot of credibility.
Speaker 0 00:52:03 Um, and yeah, he was also always, if we needed somebody to say, Hey, we have this digital expert, which we always needed for declines. It was always this guy. And, uh, and this also show me how with, um, how with, uh, yeah, I think smartness, um, in, in, in the right doses, valued quality in a person, particularly in a leader, particularly if you're looking at events on the world stage over the last four or five years being actually intelligent and clever and vulnerable, as you say, for the previous example are all examples of yeah. Exceptional leadership that maybe when we watch the news, we don't see quite so often as we maybe used stay. So between the lines on that one, folks, I want to get into it tonight that David, thank you so much for chatting with us today and taking time out of your incredibly busy schedule to speak to me. Um, and everybody listening on this episode of scaling so far, and I wish yourself and the rest of the team at type wise, including Genesee, co-founder a huge, enormous luck with everything that's coming and especially with the release of type wise three. Um, I know it's something that I'm super interested in because, uh, your statement at the very beginning about the fact that T boards were invented for typewriters 150 years ago
Speaker 3 00:53:26 Is probably something that not many of us have really thought about. So it's going to take my imagination somewhere this evening when I reflect on this. Um, so thank you. Um, and as you would say, if I was near you at the moment,
Speaker 0 00:53:41 Oh, the pleasure was all mine.
Speaker 3 00:53:43 Thanks a lot for having me. Thank you.
