Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:01 You know, I called the difference between the 10% of the 10 X. So it's, it's a little bit about that, right? So you can do several 10% and, you know, we'll bring you to a good place, right. Because, uh, you know, like of the compounding effect, right. Uh, but you need to have some of the 10 X aspects because this is what we make you stand from the crowd. And also, you know, standing from the crowd in business, it means, uh, it can mean survival, right? I truly believe, believe. And, uh, and if you want to do that, you can tell people what to do, but you need to hire the right people. And then they will tell you what to do. If everything is under control, you are going to slow. I really, you know, while I spoke about sustainable growth, I, I think there is a, an element of, you know, having something not under control because it's true, right. If everything is under control, then you are playing safe and then you are back to what I said under 10%, rather than the 10 X. Right.
Speaker 2 00:00:59 Awesome Davide, really, really pleased to be chatting with you today. Um, first off, thank you for joining us on scaling so far. Um, I've been looking forward to this for a long time <laugh> and, um, I'm excited for it to be, to be happening right now and, and to, um, yeah. To share your story and, and delivery hero story as well. So for our listeners, um, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself just to kick things off?
Speaker 1 00:01:28 Absolutely. And sorry for the back and forth with the scaling. I know that was, that was on my side. There were some hiccups, but I'm so happy to be here and to, uh, uh, you know, to be chat chatting with you today. So a little bit about myself. I describe myself as a, uh, a, like an engineer borrow to, to, to lend the two product. So, uh, basically, uh, that's how, uh, my career started. Uh, I started 22 years ago now as an engineer working on, uh, you know, any type of technology that was available at the time. And then at some point, uh, you know, I, I slowly transitioned into, into, into, into products or, you know, at the time when I transition product product was still not even super clear what product was, uh, but product management and, and design. And yeah, so the last 12 years I've spent in, uh, building products, um, in different, uh, businesses, uh, like from small startups doing video streaming to big company, doing music streaming, like SoundCloud or big eCommerce giants like Shopify. And the last couple of years I spent at, uh, delivery, uh, or DH as we say, uh, building, uh, technology for consumers. So anything that has to do with, you know, touching with our end customers, mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, for most of the markets, uh, goes through the, the, the products that we built.
Speaker 2 00:02:57 Incredible. Thank you for that. And yeah, what a journey sounds like you've got a huge expansive experience and, um, yeah, I love that you, you sort of started at a time when, as you say, weren't really sure what product really meant <laugh>, um, and it's really evolved and you've been through that journey. So, um, so as you mentioned, you are now VP of consumer products delivery hero, the company was founded in, um, is that right? Yeah. And I'd love to just a, more who haven't of think of who hasn't heard of you just tell, but, um, can you just tell us a little bit more about its its mission and its vision?
Speaker 1 00:03:41 Absolutely. So, um, so yeah, so the, the delivery vision is, is quite, uh, uh, bold, but also simple, right, is to make people's life, uh, more convenient. Um, and, uh, uh, of course we do this in, uh, in the food and eCommerce industry. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, where we are driving, you know, the tech, mainly from the technology point of view, uh, we are driving, uh, uh, food and, and eCommerce to bring anything instantly to our customers. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and we want to do this by delivering an amazing experience fast in an easy way and straight to our customers door. Uh, and this can be anything from, you know, your, uh, favorite food from your, uh, local restaurant, uh, to your, uh, uh, to an item from your local shop to, you know, even more, uh, uh, even more type of like type of items and type of sources mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, everything needs to happen through, uh, uh, I mean, what we aim for is everything happens to a flawless experience, uh, so that everything can happen easy.
Speaker 1 00:04:52 And then you have more time for, uh, you know, uh, doing anything else that can, uh, you know, can bring you joy and can, uh, uh, you know, where, where you want to invest more time in your life. And, um, I mean, to bring this vision to life, uh, I think we focused on building a company and in my case, right, uh, a group, uh, for, for the consumer platform that is, uh, leading, growing and, and carrying, and, and these are a little bit our three, uh, you know, main, uh, driver. So leading in our case, right. Product and technologies about really being at the forefront. You need always to, you know, to, you cannot only follow, right. You need to lead, you need to explore new technology. You need to, uh, uh, somehow in your industry become, uh, you know, the, the, the, the source of, uh, knowledge, right.
Speaker 1 00:05:44 And, um, so we are doing this right from, from a, from a technology point of view. Um, we define, you know, all of us as entrepreneurs because ultimately that's what we do, right. We, uh, uh, our background in, uh, in, in our teams are all people that, at some point they have their own startup, or anyway, they have this entrepreneurial, uh, mindset. Uh, so for us leading comes, you know, like for, for many of us comes quite naturally growing, uh, you know, as one of the biggest, uh, uh, tech startups in Europe, uh, we, uh, you know, we know that we need to grow, but we also know that we need to grow in a sustainable way. Uh, so, you know, we are expanding in more countries. We are growing our teams, we are looking always at opportunities, but we try to do this with, uh, you know, like with, with sustain, uh, uh, sustainability in, uh, in mind.
Speaker 2 00:06:37 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:06:38 Also, I, I like, you know, what, uh, what we say about caring is ultimately is living behind something that we can tell our, uh, you know, like, uh, children or, you know, uh, uh, uh, our, uh, the future generations that we are proud of. So, uh, we try to build a platform where, uh, uh, we can also, you know, like the, the, the food industry is, is a very complicated one with a lot of players. And we try to play a role in helping each of the, of the players involved, which, you know, like if you want to summarize our restaurants, consumers, and riders, now, my focus is mainly on consumers, but the beauty of DH is that you get to exposure to everything, right? So we aspire to have a, to the little bit of a, of a mark in the society, and to really help all, all these people that ultimately are using their platform. I mean, for the consumers, they're, you know, using to, uh, uh, uh, you know, to get something they want, but, you know, in case of restaurants or even riders, this may be their, uh, if not the main, one of their source of income. So we take this mission very seriously.
Speaker 2 00:07:44 Yeah. And I can imagine as well, that mission, um, especially taking shape or really being put on a pedestal throughout the pandemic, right. Because everybody wanted accessibility to, to their favorite products or restaurants easily. And in some respect, your, your riders, your, the people across your team are almost like frontline workers, because they're still trying to piece people, you know, give people what access to what they want at that time, ensure people are still sort of, you know, if they're having trouble seeing that happen.
Speaker 1 00:08:25 Um, absolutely. Um, as I said, I joined two years ago and, uh, was literally the 2nd of March 20, 20. Wow. Uh, and, uh, I think the eight on March, uh, uh, COVID was declared, you know, world pandemic. Something was really few days. I remember, you know, being the first days in the office and then being told, sorry, the office is shut. And, uh, and at the time probably I met 10% of my team face to face. And the following three months would there been no, you know, alone at all trying connect. And, you know, my team, as many teams at DH is distributed because we have several techs, uh, uh, I mean, we have, I think tech 10 techs around the world. And at the time my team was, uh, split between Berlin and Singapore. And I, I couldn't meet, uh, I couldn't meet these people and for a, for a person like me, uh, where everything is about the people first yeah.
Speaker 1 00:09:20 Uh, was very complicated. Right. And on top of that, that, you know, you need to learn a new industry was completely new for me. So new people working that was a little bit, uh, challenging to sort to say, uh, but then we go, we go, we went through that and, you know, things became the new normal, uh, even though was never, uh, the norm, right. To be so distant from people. But then I think we found, you know, like good balance on outward together. And for me, that was the focus of the first six months. How, how can you lead the group of people if you can't have quality time with them? Right. Because yeah. You know, like sure. Um, zoom and, you know, like all the technology really ramped up at the time. Right. So that was great, but I still, you know, somehow believe also in the personal touch and more in the, in the connection. So that was a little bit the challenging part for me, then things went better and now I'm happy, you know, because for example, today I was in the office, by the way, I come every day and, uh, you know, to realize that there are no free, uh, there is not even one free meeting room. So we are back to the old problem of, of having space. I think that's, uh, a little bit refreshing. I had to say, it's, it's, it's a nice problem to have,
Speaker 2 00:10:36 I was gonna say, everybody's just about ready for that to come back. Aren't they <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:10:41 And just exactly,
Speaker 2 00:10:43 I'd like to be back and have sense of normality, whatever that is right now. Right. So, no, that's, um, I think an incredible time to join the company. And as you say, a new industry, but an industry that is absolutely going to explode <laugh> over the first year that, that you are gonna be there. So, um, yeah, that's, that's super, super interesting journey. And as you said, you, you joined in March, 2020, the company's gone from strength to strength, tapping into new markets, um, and really scaling that team globally more recently, you acquired global as well, um, such an exciting time to join delivery hero. Um, I'd love to hear what that journey, um, as you mentioned earlier, leading in a remote first world, um, you know, since then, you know, what, what's that journey look like you and teams and approach to your role?
Speaker 1 00:11:40 Absolutely. I think has been, uh, I mean, probably probably the, the best way to describe is that it's, it has truly been a continuous, uh, way of learning for me the last two years. Everything was as of today, still a lot of things are still new simp. If you simp think the scale right today, only the consumer platform, which I would say it only serves, uh, 20 outta the 50 markets weed in consists of 1000 people, uh, out these 200 people are part of my direct team, right? So product data analytics, and I think that's a scale, uh, you know, like I never operated, right. So we have to give about scaling. Right. And so, and you, you know, like, like at, at every stage of the, of the growth, you need to learn, you know, new ways, right. As a, as my colleague will say, whatever works at with 10 people doesn't work with, then whatever works with work.
Speaker 1 00:12:37 Right. So I, I, it's true. It's, it's, it's totally true. And the point that no one will tell you what, for what works for thousand, because, because I mean, if someone pretends to tell you they're lying, the truth is that, uh, I mean, yes, there are guidelines and there are things that we can share in the industry. But the truth is, is that teams are, uh, a set of individuals, right. And set of individuals are different depending on the set that you assemble together. So I think there is a big portion. That is how you, first of all, uh, like put your team together and now you create diversity maybe in your team. And now you, you know, you assemble this, this team. And then of course there is a, there is a set of, of good practices, right? Or at least things to try to avoid at different levels.
Speaker 1 00:13:27 But for me that this, you know, the summary is, is really been tried to, to learn over the course, how things would change when, uh, uh, you know, when the teams goes, grow so much also delivery role as, um, is a very dynamic call. So we, any point in time, we look, you know, inside and we try to understand is what we are doing the best way to do, uh, what, what we do, um, is it maybe that we can extract the service and then make this service a global service for all the other companies in the group. So there is this constant assessment that, uh, one on one side is super exciting on the other. It also creates always, you know, like changes, right? Because maybe, uh, uh, uh, and we can talk more about the technology and the stack, but maybe some part of the technology stack will move somewhere else. And, you know, people, of course, you need to align people and you need to, uh, uh, you know, like, uh, uh, uh, uh, have, have conversations, right. And, and make people make sure, because as I said, we are really a people first company make sure that people are comfortable with the change. Um, but yeah, so I think, uh, uh, it has been a lot of this change over the last three years.
Speaker 2 00:14:39 And, and I do, I think that's, it's very symptomatic of like a fast growing environment or a fast growing team. Right. And you, you have to be prepared for chaos <laugh> and not necessarily chaos in a bad sense, but it is that everything's moving so quickly and, and you, you can have a long term strategy, but you've gotta be adaptable to that changing and, um, agile as well. So <laugh>, yeah, I, uh, I totally feel, and also, I think it also, um, it's reflective of that entrepreneurial spirit that you mentioned, um, earlier, and the fact that, you know, entrepreneurs don't go, right. My job's done now, <laugh> close the laptop off. I go, that spirit is always, how can we be better? How can we be more efficient? How can we service this part of the world and, and really kinda growing, um, and finding ways to stretch.
Speaker 1 00:15:35 Absolutely. And our, um, if I may add on this is, you know, I mean, of course we always look and now we can be more efficient, which is important, is an important question, but we always try to start, how can we provide the best to our customers? And then we, we, we, you know, we, we, uh, uh, uh, plan back from there and then, you know, and this may mean some changes internally may mean some changes to, to the product itself, but we really try to start, you know, I mean, in my case, I ask for customers or consumers as we call yeah. Someone, someone else in the, who will ask, how can I serve better? Our vendors, someone will ask, how can I, you know, provide better tools to our riders? So there are all these different pools and, uh, each of us is trying to optimize, right. And then the entire company is trying to, to make the best for, uh, for this, uh, uh, marketplace.
Speaker 2 00:16:27 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:29 So, uh, but I think, you know, it's cool that we start from there and then we go back, it's not, you know, how we can, uh, optimize costs. Sure. I mean, there are pockets that, uh, of, of, of, and groups that are thinking about that. Yeah. Um, ultimately, you know, also sometimes I'm asked, but 90% of the questions I have is more, how can we serve better our cast? How can we be, uh, more, uh, competitive in this, in this, uh, uh, in this region. Right. Which, yeah. Ultimately the same, right. How can we better with our customer? Because ultimately if we are the best customers will choose us. And, uh, yes. I love that twist of the, of the looking at the,
Speaker 2 00:17:09 Yeah. I love that. It's almost that sort of customer first mindset, whoever your customer is, as you said, yours is the consumer. Somebody else's might be the, the riders, so, and the vendors. That's fantastic. And, um, I saw on LinkedIn that you are really scaling your, your consumer platform teams, um, engineers, designers, product managers, analysts, the list goes on, are you, um, what's the, what's the surge behind hiring, um, for you and sort of how are you going about, um, bringing the right people on board at the, at the pace and quality that you really need for delivery hero?
Speaker 1 00:17:45 Yeah, yeah. Uh, absolutely. So, I mean, uh, first of all, lemme start with a little bit on numbers. So delivery, um, is currently operating in 50 markets and more, you know, like if you call, if you also count the recent, uh, uh, information, you can find over the internet, but I mean, 50 markets is our official statement. Um, and we have more than tech, uh, 10 tech hub, basically what is a tech hub is, is a, is a location where we have a consistent number of engineers that are working on, on, uh, either global or local solutions. Um, and, uh, uh, you know, like in order to, you know, to operate at this skill, uh, uh, of course we need to create the best product experience, uh, for the customers in whoever your customers are. And we have to have the best people, um, now in terms of, so the people need to be great and also you need the certain amount of people.
Speaker 1 00:18:41 It's, uh, it's also a little bit about how many, because problems are, uh, uh, or problem and opportunities and the solutions for them become more and more complex. And what today, what maybe a year ago was something that you would solve as a whole, I don't know. I can give you an example, you know, like maybe a year ago we would be talking about checkout, right. Which is part of right checkout in way where maybe there are people that are optimizing for, uh, provider selection. And there are people that are optimizing for, uh, optimizing and solutioning for, uh, um, uh, like providing the most essential information so that you can review your order. And there are other people that maybe are optimizing for, how can we, uh, maybe cross sell on the checkout, right. So you see that what was one problem before, or at least the understanding of what problem now became more multiple.
Speaker 1 00:19:48 So you literally need more brains, uh, uh, to think about these things, right? And, and that's why you need also to scale your team. And that's why, you know, you see a lot of job openings right. Of, of talents across the world. Uh it's because of the complexity, uh, or the maturity also of our, of our product. We, we went very deep into, you know, personalization, uh, uh, uh, machine learning, AI, you know, these are, these are disciplines where you need to build a lot of product, a lot of tech, and to do that, you need great people and you need a certain amount of these people.
Speaker 2 00:20:25 Yeah. Amazing. And how, um, yeah, it seems, I think what I always find quite fascinating as well. Maybe we'll talk about this shortly, but is how you have groups of people working on these new, new problems, new, new areas that arise and, and they become more complex, but keep them all aligned and rowing in the same direction. And, and how does one thing not conflict with the other.
Speaker 1 00:20:52 Yeah, yeah. Um, well, that's the, the, the, the, the, the difficulty right. Of, yeah. Of managing a little bit, you know, this distributed and complex teams. Um, I think, uh, so the, the, the first thing is we try to operate in a way where, as I said, right, I feel I can call myself an entrepreneur, you know, uh, uh, and, and I truly believe that, and I want this culture to pass through to my team and to their teams. Right. I think we truly operate with a very high degree of autonomy. And I think that's very key, uh, because you, then what you need to do, you need to align on, uh, on the fundamentals, which are, of course the culture, the direction we are going. And of course what we are optimizing for, you know, in terms of big, big goals, but then you don't need to necessarily align everyone on how to do things, right.
Speaker 1 00:21:52 Just, just as an example, I've been in companies. So I've seen companies that try to have everything standardized. We work with these tools, this is the process to open a project. This is the process to get resources. And, uh, I mean, on paper, it's beautiful, right? Because you can almost have a manual and then you can follow the truth is that doesn't work that way. Right. And we, I think I can say that we don't even pretend to do that. So I think, you know, we have this level of, uh, uh, lose alignment, uh, uh, where, you know, we know where we are going and we refresh continuously, you know, with our co talking and with, you know, us talking to our teams and translating, you know, the company goal into, you know, what we call the vertical goals. So I think in case of consumer, but then we need to allow a lot of degree of freedom and flexibility, which means that sometimes yeah, some things go a little bit of track and then when you catch or someone catches, then you need to correct. But it's OK. It's part of the, I really see organizations and company as leaving where, you know, like, uh, you need also a little bit evolution to, to do their course. Right. And, uh, and, you know, evolution sometimes go in strange ways and then, you know, some ways, uh, uh, die in the sense that, you know, they don't expand more. Um, and, and some other instead open for new opportunities that you would not even think. Right. So, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's a little bit of like an approach to how, how we do things.
Speaker 2 00:23:21 I love that way of describing it, um, similar to evolution, because yeah, I think, especially when you're working in a startup and scale up innovation is so critical and like, and people talk about innovation. Um, but as you say, when you then say, we're really innovative, but we've got these processes and these structures to follow, and we can't do that until this is done. You're then limiting, like, it's almost the antithesis innovation <laugh> so actually giving people that freedom, that entrepreneurial, um, like space to kind of shoot for things. And, you know, if it doesn't work, that's fine, like course. Correct. And, and to stretch themselves beyond, beyond just following processes, um, I think that's, that's gonna help in the long run, especially in an, a genuinely innovative company.
Speaker 1 00:24:10 Exactly. Exactly. If you try to, you know, like if you try to only, uh, do what you, you have, certainly that will succeed, then, you know, you can have a good company that probably will, uh, you know, I call the difference between the 10% of the 10. So it's, it's a little bit about that, right. So you can do several 10% and, you know, we'll bring you to a good place, right. The compounding, right. But you need to have some of the 10 bets, this is what will make you stand from the crowd. And also, you know, standing from the crowd in business, it means, uh, it can mean survival. Right. I truly believe that. And, uh, and if you wanna do that, you can tell people what do, but you need to the right people and then they will tell you
Speaker 2 00:24:57 Yeah. Um, okay. That actually ties really nicely with the next, uh, the next question I have, which hiring the right people. Um, how do you go about assessing whether folks are the right people for delivery hero for your approach, um, for, for what you are trying to build for the future, essentially. Um, how do you know whether they're right for, for the delivery here and the role and, and for your teams?
Speaker 1 00:25:24 Totally. I think of course, I mean, uh, putting aside the technical part, right. I mean, of course, uh, there are, you know, we have a great talent acquisition team that are very well defined processes in every discipline, you know, engineering design, there are, you know, design challenges, engineering, you know, like there is a way to, uh, uh, to, to assess a little bit the, what, what are the art skills. Right, right. Then I think it's all about a little bit the soft skills. Right. And, uh, we, you know, we it's art, I mean, and it doesn't work a hundred percent, but we try to find people that are similar, but different to us. Right. Similar in the sense they share our values, you know? Yeah. You know, there are people that are not comfortable right. In having, uh, a very, uh, uh, light direction. There are people that want, you know, uh, that want much strict and it's not right or wrong.
Speaker 1 00:26:17 Right. It's simply different. So, and, you know, if you have an open conversation, right. Ultimately, as I tell, uh, whoever I interview, right. Interview is not about me judging you, or you judging the companies is a much, and so it has to work for both. So I tends, and my team does the same to have this very open interview where you open all the cards and you say, Hey, this is how things work here. And we, I tend, uh, to also, uh, uh, you know, like depict a little bit to the part that is not perfect yet. And, and that's the reason why you're adding in the past. Right? Yeah. So I think for me an advice, and, you know, I've been in situation in the past where, uh, you know, even as a being interviewed, right. Like people were pitching me, the company as the right.
Speaker 1 00:27:01 And we know that Evan, you know, like the, the perfect company doesn't exist. And I think we try to do a little bit of this, right. To be open and talk about how we see things and what are the things that, that we, uh, that we, things that we think are not, but we like that way. Yeah. And, you know, like by doing that, you find out, you know, who, who, who, who stays right. In, in, in the different steps. And then, so it's complicated, right. And the more you go and senior leadership roles, the more complicated, right. Because you really need to, uh, you know, to be able to filter these soft skills that are, that are, are quite complicated. Um, but, uh, but you know, I think over time, I had to say also looking a little bit at the numbers that we always do, uh, you know, like, uh, most of the people we are, uh, then we have successful transitions, onboarding, and, uh, uh, successful, you know, probation period. So, you know, in the countries. So I think, uh, I think we are quite with the process.
Speaker 2 00:28:06 Brilliant. And I think as well, like, as you say, having that open conversation allows the candidate to make an informed decision and almost disqualify themselves, if they don't feel that they would like the environment. And, and, and as long as you are honest as a company, they can then make that decision and know that they're doing the right thing for themselves in instead of potentially joining and your onboarding stats don't look so great because a few months down the line, they go, oh, that it wasn't really the right environment for me. I was just gonna say that that's potentially like a pitfall that some, um, sort of early stage companies can sometimes go down because, you know, fantastic product and tech talent, tough to find, um, when you find somebody who has exceptional skills or in a, you know, great experience, you might be tempted to say, yes, let's just hire them and it'll work. But actually if they aren't able to adapt or aren't right for, for your environment, or as much as you are not right for them and their way of working it, it's not gonna work
Speaker 1 00:29:17 True. True. And you know, like the truth is right. That yes, the market is crazy, right. It's not challenging. It's crazy. And you may be tempted. Right. But it's also true that the, the, you know, most people know what I just said. Right. The, the perfect company does. So if you try to pitch something that doesn't exist, they will catch you and go to the next company. So it's, uh, the, the options for them, uh, are, are, are, are many, right. So they can pick whatever they like. And also, you know, on your point of, even if you are able, right. To, uh, pitch a better situation, that what is in reality, think a little bit of sales skills are always needed, right. When you to be on, right. It needs to be on the, on the right level. But also it's about, you know, what we say at DH, right, is that we are here for the long term. We are here not for, uh, you know, solving a product for six months or a year. Right. We want to build teams that go, you know, beyond the leader that deciding that teams today. Right. And in general, we want to build the product that will go beyond year. And, and then, you know, if you start thinking that mindset, then the shortcut doesn't make sense anymore because yeah. Why am I trying to get someone and then maybe get this person in six months? Right. It doesn't really that's how to that,
Speaker 2 00:30:35 Like that. I like it a lot. And, um, so for you, uh, dev day, what are some of your goals, um, and real focuses as, as VP of consumer products over the next sort of 12, 18 months? What are you,
Speaker 1 00:30:52 I think there are, there are still things I want do, uh, I want to do as, um, you know, in terms of growing my team and growing, not in terms of people. I think, uh, you know, we, we, I mean, we'll grow, but we are also quite where we're, um, uh, I think, you know, I, I want to become, I want us to become better in, uh, um, uh, more efficient communication between the departments and, uh, you know, even sometimes more transparency. I still feel that sometimes tough conversations are a little bit pushed, you know, like, uh, a away in time. And they're a little bit postponed. I, I want to get better at that, I think. Um, and, uh, uh, I mean, and of course, I mean, for my teams, their goal is to keep, you know, finding these great talents, right. That will, you know, come here and say, yeah, but I mean, the way you're looking across selling is wrong, you know, and this is, I think, you know, I really, I really want them to think this way.
Speaker 1 00:31:57 And then there is the product itself, right? I, uh, I mean, what we want to do is really to build the product that will, uh, will become like a reference in deliver. But I really think we, we will build something that will be referencing the industry and people will point to that product as the best way to deliver food and items to the customer. And in order to that, to do that, I think we still have things to do when it comes to the, sometimes attention to the details, you know, like fine tuning the experience and, uh, or things like, you know, becoming better and better in, uh, uh, this complicated technology. How can we help people find the products they want or they need, how can we recommend people? How can we be? And that's what I also like in delivery, a global company with the local, right? How can we be relevant in, uh, Thailand as well as in Norway, right. With the similar product than not the same. So, um, with a different landscape, with different people, with different competitors, I think it's a very, very cool challenge. And, uh, it involves an understanding of the industry that goes really, you know, into very, very complex, you know, like segmentations and metrics and, uh, uh, you know, and, and all these understanding of the customers. Um, and yeah, I think that's where I wanna focus the next couple of years, for sure.
Speaker 2 00:33:26 So not a lot.
Speaker 2 00:33:32 That sounds incredible. One thing I would love to pick up on and dig a bit deeper into, from what you've just said is, is around, um, that globalization aspect and obviously having a global team, but making sure that the products that you're shipping is, is more localized and resonates with that local audience from your team perspective. Do, how do you achieve that or access the Intel from a local audience? Yes. Understand like what's resonating, what's not resonating. Do you have team members in those specific locations or is there a feedback loop that you implement with, with a different
Speaker 1 00:34:10 Absolutely. I think you opened the beautiful can and I can talk for, uh, probably for the next 20 minutes, but I'll try, first of all, lemme where I start, uh, like there is one, there is one concept that I think it's important that, uh, there is a localization. That is how we can be better in Malaysia rather than, uh, uh, a 10 mark. Right. So there is this component and, you know, it permeates into the product through different dimensions, right through, you know, the basic language, currency, payment integrations, local regulations, you know, we have GDPR in Europe, we don't have in, uh, in, in Malaysia for example, but we have different. So there is this right. Literally the country, then there is the localization when it comes to the users. So what we try to look at is, uh, who are our users? What are they trying to achieve on the platform and how can we categorize them?
Speaker 1 00:35:10 And then we end up with personas and one example, maybe the, the, the simplest, uh, to explain maybe the deal answer. Okay. So deals answer. So a persona that is looking for deals. I mean, there are people on our platform that, you know, they come to the platform, uh, for discovering deals and if they found a better deal on grab or another copy, they will go there. It's literally what they do. They open three apps and then they select, and, uh, now deal deals are, uh, in Malaysia as well as in, uh, uh, Singapore, as well as in Finland can, right.
Speaker 1 00:35:54 Or region to local in terms of lo like to a segment of customers. Right. And, um, and I think so that's the first thing, right? So there's a component that is really understanding the user from the data, from the interviews. How do we, that we, of course, as many other companies have, you know, uh, disciplines like user research, focus groups, you know, like we, there is no better way than talking to the customers. Yeah. I also, I also like to, you know, sometimes to spend time simply going through the app store and read the review, you know, like there are all these things that, where you can get some, uh, uh, some Intel and, you know, of course it has zero impact what I read, but, you know, like I think, uh, uh, definitely, uh, it's a mindset. We all do that. Yeah. Then there is what you were, were, we're also asking the local in terms of the country.
Speaker 1 00:36:44 So, uh, the short is that in order for us to understand the country, we need to be there. And we are there because we have, uh, sales people that are there. We have business operations that is there. We have, you know, logistic that is there. So what do we do is, uh, to create connection between these people that are on the ground and the product people that are across the world and try to, uh, get these people together. So recently we came up with, uh, a different way of planning, you know, before we were doing, you know, almost like, uh, as many other company, quarterly planning, right. With OKRs, you know, uh, recently we came up with a different way, different twist again, which we called collaborative, uh, continuous collaborative planning. So instead of sitting every three months, uh, you know, like, and deciding on what comes next, we said, you know, let's create smaller groups of people that meet every two weeks or every month, and they simply discuss what is going on now and what will happen next.
Speaker 1 00:37:47 So the horizon zone is a little bit smaller, but, uh, they are in constant exchange of information so that the response to the market change in the market that is so, uh, crazy as, as ours can be faster. And so now we just launched this, uh, few months ago. So, uh, maybe we can talk about this in the next episode, uh, if it was successful or not, but I think the first results are very encouraging because are creating even more connection between product and what someone would call business that in our case, it's not really that, you know, different. I, I believe that I, I do believe that everyone does product because ultimately, you know, like, uh, uh, it's, it's, it's the same platform for everyone. And I also do believe that everyone should understand the business, otherwise, you know, you, what, what are you really, uh, uh, doing? Right. So I think, um, I think it's creating a tighter connection as creating, you know, more cross functional teams. Yeah. In a way that is a little bit larger than the crossfunctional. We intend today with product design, uh, engineering, but is even including business operations and so forth. So I'm very, very happy of, of this change that, that we're experimenting.
Speaker 2 00:38:57 Um, I would love to hear how it goes, cause I think it sounds like an incredible initiative and, and one that allows you as a global company to, as you said, have these really, um, cross collaborative teams, you get different insights from different, um, different locals, but also from different perspectives in the business in terms of yeah. Where their, where their priorities are and what, what they're focused on and what they're hearing as well. Um, so yeah, it sounds incredible. I would love to hear how this goes. <laugh>, we'll schedule another chat for the next season. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:39:30 Absolutely
Speaker 2 00:39:31 Amazing. Thank you for sharing that with us. Um, so talking about leading teams, um, you you've led teams, the likes of SoundCloud Shopify, um, as you mentioned earlier, and you, I'm sure you've got a ton of ton of learnings, um, from those experiences as well. What are some of the key learnings that you have when it comes to sort of people talent shaping leading teams over the years?
Speaker 1 00:40:00 I think so there are, there are definitely a couple of things that come to mind. One is about the people, the people, uh, you know, that you work with. I think I I'm, I, you know, I, I, I, I always set this goal with me and, you know, in some cases I was able to, to, to accomplish more than goal is dream. Right? So the dream is to work with friends, you know, like is to, to almost call friends, everyone you're working with now it's complicated, right. When you become too. But I think if you aspire for that, I think, you know, there is, there is something you can do along the way. Right? Yeah. And now of course, being friend with people is not doesn't mean that you always agree with everyone. It doesn't mean that they're all the same, actually most, probably the opposite.
Speaker 1 00:40:41 Uh, so I think that's the one, right? Yeah. The second I, you know, and this is more personal, right. I value passion a lot. So even beyond skills, I think you can learn right. Things, but if you're not passionate, I, and, you know, passionate doesn't mean that you don't have passion for anything, right. Maybe you are not passionate for solving the problems we have today. Right. Which, which is a very specific thing. Right. I think it's, it's okay. Not to work together. Right. So I think passion is definitely, uh, uh, you know, is definitely one of the key things. I look into people when, uh, when joining us and when joining me in the past, uh, and then, you know, like, uh, I think there's always a component of, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, like growing the team and, you know, but growing responsibly, right.
Speaker 1 00:41:33 I think, you know, what we mentioned before, I think it's important that you, you, every time, and that's what I learned, you know, especially at the beginning of my career, as a manager, as a leader, is to, you know, take also your time to, uh, um, think about the, the setup you have and think if you want to grow into that setup or into different setup and maybe do the changes before keep growing again. So, uh, I, I think that's, uh, for me, that's extremely important because everyone talks about growth, right? The world talks only about growth, right? GDPs, everything has to grow, but I think there is a component where growth needs to make sense in the system that you're growing and you need to design the system to, as I said at the beginning, right. What works at 10 doesn't work at? So it means that sometimes you need to redesign or reshuffle the system so that you can apply growth again, and that growth will give you additional margin that otherwise would've been lost in noise.
Speaker 1 00:42:33 So, uh, that's it then maybe the last thing, and I close here on leading teams, I think is also important about how, you know, like, like the, the principles again. Right. And I think, you know, in my previous companies send D always try to bring, you know, my true self, you know, transparency it's super important because then it gets transparency back. And, and it's a beautiful, you know, cycle of, uh, uh, you know, of, of like honesty, right. Uh, work, really working. So I think, you know, like basically just to summarize before the skills, there is really a little bit the culture, and then the culture is something you drive, but also only people that, that are believing that culture.
Speaker 2 00:43:18 Yeah. Amazing. There are so many great points in there. I think your point on growth growth, um, how did you describe growth sustainably or, um, yeah. Growth sustainably is really interesting because I do, and I think, you know, symptomatic of, of early stage companies as it is, right. If you're venture backed, you've got, um, you know, you've got shareholders to answer to, and, um, your community where, you know, you are, you are always pushing to reach these growth targets that you've you've promised. And I think it's, um, it can be so tempting to grow at all costs and then compromise on, on certain aspects. So you've almost got that like a sort of triangle where you say, okay, growth, but then what, what happens to these two aspects, um, and finding that balance so that you can grow sustainably and you're not compromising on other that are integrity, your business key, even just in teams, right. <laugh>, um, it can be tempting to grow your team and, you know, hit, hit, you know, I wanna get to 50 people in my team. I wanna get to this in my team, or in order to do this, gotta do this, but actually you've gotta be very intentional with the, how you grow your team. So
Speaker 1 00:44:34 Exactly. And yeah, you, you got exactly the point. I think, you know, uh, there is, there is a, let's put this way. There is a, an easy way of solving problem, right? That, that is to drop more at the problem, right. More money or more people. And that's the easy shortcut maybe, and these words in the short term. But again, if you think about the long term, uh, then it, you know, it still means that you need to grow, but maybe you don't need to grow too fast. You need to grow fast maybe, but I think keeping in mind that, uh, uh, that, you know, sometimes you need to review the system and you need to readjust the system. I think it's a little bit what, in engineering, we call the technical depth, right? Sometimes, you know, you do things and you know that then you will pay in the future for what you are doing today.
Speaker 1 00:45:23 So, you know, you may accept, okay. I add 20 people to this team knowing that, uh, you know, in six months I need to restructure the team and you do that decision and you do con but you do consciously. And I think that's, uh, sorry, that's my, uh, uh, you know, understanding of sustainably this way has nothing to do with money. It has nothing to do with, you know, with any, uh, of the, of the definition, you know, like, uh, of course with the environment, but it's literally, how can you, the way that your system, let's say your group benefits benefit, and that's it,
Speaker 2 00:45:57 And building for the future, not for the right now, like not going, this is my immediate biggest pain point that you are in people debt already at that point. <laugh> actually, you, that's a position that obviously you should have hired for like four months ago. Probably. So it's thinking about what, yeah. How do I look forward to my future potential pain points? How does this role fit into the, the, the future of this team and what will they solve in the future? Not just the I'm having issues of payroll. I need a payroll advisor right now. <laugh> sort of thing. So, no, that makes total sense. Um, and do you maybe have seen some, some advice, some advice sort of Bandi around or pitfalls that you think, oh, don't fall down that trap I've seen it happen too often. Um, when it comes to sort of building and scaling teams in a fast growing environment, maybe we've just covered this, but <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:46:55 Probably, probably, I would remark that one, you know, it's the, the, which you grow and the complexity that you bring with this, because, you know, when you grow, it's not only that you add the new element to the system, right. Or more elements to the system, but you, you bring maybe a new, if you, if you are growing, uh, if you are, if you, if you adding properly, you bring new points of view, which is great, but it also, you know, like, like changes the system, right. It changes the way you look at progress. So I think that's, that's really my single advice. I think too often today, I see companies growing too fast and like suffering a lot out of that. And even worse when companies are only growing to show a bigger, you know, like grow people, just to show bigger evaluating that's the worst can happen. But that's, again, for another episode, I guess
Speaker 2 00:47:47 <laugh>, I think that's a shared pet peeve of ours. <laugh>, um, cool. I'm conscious of time. Um, and would love to sort of bring, bring our chat to the close with a couple of lighthearted questions, um, aside from passion, which I know you mentioned earlier that you are incredibly passionate about people being passionate <laugh>. Um, but is there anything that you, yourself, whether personally or professionally are just incredibly passionate about you just find unapologetic amounts of joy in?
Speaker 1 00:48:18 Um, I think, uh, um, well, <laugh> interesting. I think, uh, uh, I mean there are, there are, there are many things I, I really, I really find joy. I mean, it may sound okay. It may sound a little bit of a, of a strange answer, right. Especially in the world where everyone talks about work, life balance, and, you know, I've in, in conversation around this, but I really like what I do, you know, like I like the job. I like the challenges. I like the, I really consider myself. And that's what I repeat my team in the, you know, on, on 1% or lucky ones that, uh, that can almost choose what to do right. In where you can almost pick the company, what you work for. So you choose to work for DH. Right? Like in my case, it's not that, you know, of course DH also chose me, but you, you see what I mean?
Speaker 1 00:49:11 I feel, you know, I feel lucky. I like my job, you know, I, I always tell my, my, my team, right. I, you know, my father, he drove trains for 35 years. Right. So definitely interesting. Right. But it was the same thing for the, we can choose what to do, how to do with whom to do. And, uh, I, I really consider myself lucky and I really like to indulge sometimes in, uh, you know, even after, after keep thinking about the work and keep thinking how we can do things better with the team and with the customers. I, I dunno how else is to say that, but I don't necessarily feel, you know, at the end of the day that I did work, you know what I mean? It's, uh, it's, it's really, it's really something I, uh, uh, I like, and probably that's where you see the passion coming. Right. I, you know, like if you like what you do, then you transmit this passion and then people it's a little bit contagious. Right? Yeah. Best than this. I could have only been a football player, but, uh, I didn't, <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:50:21 Amazing.
Speaker 1 00:50:22 I'm, I'm Italian, I'm Italian
Speaker 2 00:50:23 <laugh>, um, did, is this is a side, cause I'm, I'm, I'm similar. Like I like to listen and to learn in what I do. Um, and I, I listen to podcasts, I write notes on my phone. Like, do you have a note section on your phone that's packed or do you have a book or like, do you journal?
Speaker 1 00:50:43 I, yeah, no. I, I mean, I, uh, in terms of how I take notes or, uh,
Speaker 2 00:50:48 Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:50:48 Yeah, yeah. I I'm still, you know, in order for me to remember notes, I need to do this. So I, I still pen and paper and I have multiple of this and I took notes also now that we were talking. Right. So, yeah, that's my way now it's very old fashioned because it's very difficult to search through this thing. Right. Because it's paper. Uh, but I do like, it's a little bit the craft that is left, so yeah.
Speaker 2 00:51:16 Yeah, no, I, I absolutely love that. I think that's fantastic. And I think there's, there's also, um, an aspect of it that helps to get it out your brain or your phone and onto a piece of paper that you're making it solid when you put <laugh> it's like, dunno how
Speaker 1 00:51:31 It gets real. Yeah. It gets real
Speaker 2 00:51:34 Exactly. Um, just to bring us to a close Devi, I'd love to hear is, is there a thought a value or a phrase that you really like to live by?
Speaker 1 00:51:44 Huh? Uh, I, uh, maybe couple I can, I can mention because describe a little bit the way, uh, also the way I see things, right. So, uh, one is, I mean, I don't want to know what the wrong person, because I read this 10 years ago or more, no, 15 years ago now I think the sentence goes something like, uh, if everything is under control, you are going slow. I think was Maria, that was, that was, you know, a professional, uh, uh, driver in the 50 or 60, but basically, you know, like, uh, I really, you know, while I spoke about sustainable growth, I, I think there is an element of, you know, having something not under control because it's true, right. If everything is under control, then you are playing safe and then you are back to what I said under 10%, rather than that's.
Speaker 1 00:52:35 I think other two are more, uh, uh, Latin sentences that I end up repeating to the teams, uh, uh, uh, and one is, you know, uh, uh, the other one goes more like a good them. I think both of them a little bit, they express the fact that if you, if you repeat something, then you help, uh, to get this message through. Right. And I think it, it seems very obvious, right. But I think it helps me, uh, with my way of communication. Right. I, you know, like, uh, I really think that when there an imp you, at some point you ask, how do you align? Right. And I think, you know, it's complicated to align because there are many people. So the only way you have is to repeat the message in different forums, maybe with slightly different, uh, words. So then the message really seeps through, I think we are beyond the world where you would send an email and everyone will write worried. I don't, I, I don't think I, you know, like maybe I'm a, I'm a bad employee, but also my emails, they go and read, uh, we are beyond the world where you send us slack message and this necessarily read understood. And, you know, I think there is overcommunication and, uh, I think, uh, it sounds bad, right? Because my approach creates even more communication, but at least directs this, you know, not gets or communication multiple times, but always the same. So I think, uh, that's the reason of the two sentences, the Latin sentence.
Speaker 2 00:54:05 I love, love all of them. That last one sounds like communication consistently and repeatedly. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:54:12 Exactly
Speaker 2 00:54:13 Lovely. Look, David, it's been so wonderful speaking to you and, and hearing more about, um, the consumer products team at delivery hero and, and what you are up to your focus is, and, um, how you're scaling and you've, you've imparted some incredible advice and, um, and learnings as well. So thank you so much for that. It's been brilliant.
Speaker 1 00:54:33 Thanks a lot. Thank you. And, uh, yeah. Have a, have a good rest of the day.
Speaker 2 00:54:38 Thank you.
