Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 It's obvious that planning is hard. You should always have, you know, a hybrid solution. This is my view also in early stage. Maybe you haven't even found product market fit. You don't know whether you're gonna have to be able to raise funding in the next six months or not. So just for that reason, why put such an important role at risk and then, and then have to let them go.
Speaker 1 00:00:24 Eva, thank you so much for joining us on, uh, the Scaling So Far podcast today. Really looking forward to chatting and, and hearing your perspectives on a bunch of juicy talent topics. So appreciate you coming on to the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:38 Thank you. I'm excited. It's my, uh, first podcast like, yeah, that's <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:00:46 It'll be a good conversation. Um, to start things off, I'd love to hear just a little bit about your journey, um, to where you are today, if that's right.
Speaker 0 00:00:55 Yeah, of course. Um, so I'm from, I'm, I, I, um, I studied there. I then lived for, um, a living bit in France, uh, for an internship. I stayed for work and then I went to London, uh, just with nothing really. Uh, no, no job, no apartment, no nothing. And, um, I started with a few jobs and then I started to study my master in hr. And I did consider going into HR first. Uh, but I just thought I always enjoyed more, like a bit the sales aspect and more, um, just fast-paced, uh, environments, to be honest. And then I thought, okay, recruitment might be a really for, to start. And to be honest, I did have, um, a very good previous experience. We had our recruiter that actually had hunted me for another role I had, and I was just so impressed by the work he did and how he did it.
Speaker 0 00:01:48 And I was like, I wanna do that. Um, that looks fun. Um, I went into healthcare recruitment first and I didn't really enjoy it, uh, for the NHS and, and, uh, I just don't know. I just, uh, I felt it was a bit wrong, uh, to be honest, that, uh, agencies were making so much money of us recruiters hiring for the nhs. I just thought it was a bit broken to me, to be honest, as a system. So then I went into, into tech, uh, tech recruitment, which was a complete intentional move because I just thought, okay, that's just a future. It's a way forward. I could learn so much. And I did. Um, I wanted to go into agency first because it was, I would say the best school. Um, so agencies are, are, it's very competitive, uh, the agency sector, uh, in London, especially in tech, I would say.
Speaker 0 00:02:43 So I just thought, okay, I'll go there for a while. And of course, very commission based, very KPI based, but I, I really thought it was a really good learning curve for me. And, um, and just being into the deep and, uh, you know, I, I remember, remember I was actually the only non British person in that office for a while, which was a bit strange for me. I was like, not that, but things started to, and I did well in, and then I was approached by talent. That's the, I was before freelancing now, and they were more a consultancy model, like you at Seed. Uh, they were, you were and by the talent partners for, for businesses. Yeah. And immediately when, um, yeah, immediately when I joined, I, I was sent to Berlin as the first employee to start doing projects in Berlin. When I onboarded, they were like, ok, there's a project in Berlin for a fashion tech company.
Speaker 0 00:03:42 Um, do you wanna go? And I was like, uh, why not? You know, I dunno anything about the German tech recruitment market, but, um, but that sounded fun. And, uh, and it was an onsite experience. So I was there with a client and it was super great, to be honest. We opened an office, uh, here in Berlin, and Ill tell more about that later, but I, I basically then I went from, um, there was a bit of a life changing experience for me, and then I decided to, into, into freelancing, and this is where I am now. I have to make clients called Charles and Club, and I've been with them since they wanna started freelancing. And it's been, it's been really great. I joined them both stage and, um, and I help them scale now until, and hopefully, let's see. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:04:37 You've got ton of experience hiring teams and, and shaping TA functions at early startups and scale up. Um, like, and as you said now, club and Charles, like, what biggest learnings been along the way?
Speaker 0 00:04:55 So every, all these companies are very different for sure, but for me, what I really learned is that, um, you have to adapt. So there is no, uh, there is no way that one size fits. I went with all the, to all those companies with a very, very open mind. I know who I am as a recruiter, I know what I expect and what, how I've seen things go well go wrong. Uh, but I also want to go there with an open mind and also to an extent adapt and understand a bit their culture in order for me to do my job, not just impose and be like, this is how I did it and before, this is how we're gonna do it. I just really wanted to understand where they came from, uh, where, uh, why they had the processes in place they had and see and just partner with them really, uh, see, see how, how I could help them keep their culture, but still, you know, hire at a good pace and find good talent, um, partner with everyone, not just the founders, just every he under every person that was involved.
Speaker 0 00:05:52 Um, so it was, it was about being flexible. I think that was the key, right, for being a, a good, uh, talent partner is that you, you have to adapt to very different projects very quickly, and you have to make it work. So you do have to be very good at reading situations fast, uh, understanding dynamics, maybe inside teams and see how that could block hiring or maybe, um, make it easier. So just, just to, just bringing those learnings and just being also adaptable, I would say, without compromising quality, because in the end, I do care about the experience we provide to, and I still have the recruiter that wants to and wants to and all that. So, um, but just being adaptable and to, to their culture, I would say, and their needs. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:06:40 Sounds like the perfect balance though, because you've got those different experiences from your agency days and then early stage in house as well. And I think with startups and, and scale ups, especially, like you, as you said, you have to adapt because what, what they're doing is more often than not completely innovative and has never been done before. So practices that you've, um, you've implemented elsewhere can't necessarily be exactly, you have your sort of different frameworks that you might test out, but yeah, you have to absorb exactly who they are before you then go in and, and yeah, based on on where they should be going,
Speaker 0 00:07:21 You, you have to build trust very fast. That's the key, right? To, to being, uh, sticky to customers in the end. Um, and then eventually they'll probably come to you and they'll say, okay, what's like, why is this not working? What do you think? How do you think we should do it? And I think that's the most important moment, right, in the relationship between you and a customer, is when they do come, they do see you as an advisor in your special area. They don't just come as, okay, I'm the client, I'm time manager, whatever. This is how we do it. And if it doesn't work, we're just gonna keep doing it that way. Um, look, you know, if that's what you want, but in the end you should be able to build that trust. And, and I think that's essentially the key to success, I would say. Know
Speaker 1 00:08:06 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> obviously like building trust in, in you, you know, your role now and, um, being your own boss, especially as hmm, a contract talent leader. Um, it's super important. Yeah. I would love to dig into why you made that decision to, to transition and just Yeah. Become your own boss.
Speaker 0 00:08:27 Yeah. Um, so the life changing experience was the pandemic. Um, and then I just decided it was time for me to take control of the situation a little bit and be like, okay, I know I can do a good job. Uh, I've done a, I have a good track record with the customers. They've always extended the contracts. I've made lots of contacts, uh, in those, uh, in the past. Um, maybe important to highlight that I was in the good position that I was the first first employee being sent to a country where we were expanding. So, and the person of doing that, I was networking a lot. I was trying to, I was put in charge of running events, uh, monthly for, in Berlin, and I was moderating them, looking for speakers, going to companies like, hello, whatever, ask them for their office space and organizing events.
Speaker 0 00:09:15 So in the process of doing that, um, I kind put my face out there. So I knew I had complex, uh, in, in, yeah. So the question mark was, I know I can do recruitment, um, can I get my clients? That was, that was a bit, and my second question was that, am I good recruiter because I work at, or am I good because I'm just good on my own or, and I can do it on my own? And that was something I wanted to answer, um, for myself. So I started to talk to other freelancers, to other people that did kind of the same, but I would say the pandemic was maybe the turning point. And for me, I, I, at first I was scared, and then I thought, wait, wait, this is actually very empowering. Uh, I could do something, uh, with this.
Speaker 1 00:09:57 And as youve sort of mentioned into that new path as well, um, what do you feel have been some of the key factors in your success? As you've mentioned, youre, you're still with Simple Club and, and Charles who you're with when you first went in, you must be doing an incredible job there.
Speaker 0 00:10:14 Yeah, the first contract with, with was for three, they wanted to sign for one month, and it was for three months, and then eventually became almost two years now. Um, so of course you have to deliver. I I, we did hire a lot of people. Um, but in the end, I also bonded very well with the teams. Uh, I was not really, because you are in this freelance position, you're like, okay, what if I don't say what I think? I don't have to be diplomatic about certain things. So I was very honest when things were not working or what my opinion was. And I think that worked in my favor, uh, lots of times. So I, I just bonded very well with their HR teams, with the founders, with the honey managers, and I was coming them from a position of, I care about your business.
Speaker 0 00:11:01 I also care my, about my reputation as a freelancer, so that's also physically why I want to do a good job here. And, um, and I, I guess I just, I, I became to them because I I combination of delivery trust and, and, uh, and just care, really, for me, I, I took it as this is my business. Like, I'm not going into freelancing to chill or to have even that much more time off, but I'm, I'm doing that because I do want to prove something. And, and I think that's, you know, that that's what, what did it, to be honest. Um, yeah, these two clients are very good examples, but of course, in the course of that, I had to say no to others, uh, which I felt like they were not a fit for me. And that's something you also,
Speaker 1 00:11:50 That also as, as a, as a freelancer, you can do, right? You, you, as you said before, like you're taking control of your future Yeah. And able to say yes to the types of companies and partnerships that align to you versus those that might not. That's where real also passion and care for those companies comes in.
Speaker 0 00:12:11 That's true, to be honest. And of course, no contract is perfect. You know, they all have their things, but in the end, you have to, to find, to make it work for you to, the most important thing for me was the learning person. From the time I stopped learning, I was like, it's not for me anymore. And maybe the co even for the cultural reasons, maybe they just didn't align at all. Uh, and, and then, or the way they did recruitment, or the way they treated recruiters in general, if I saw some red flags there, I would be like, okay, no, I would probably try to give feedback before mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, uh, then just to see, you know, but that's, that's sadly we both know that, uh, recruitment is broken in lots of companies. And and that's maybe for some companies, certainly not gonna change. Uh, so yeah,
Speaker 1 00:12:56 I'm conscious that some folks out there might be considering making a similar move, um, and becoming a freelance contractor. Like, what advice would you give them?
Speaker 0 00:13:06 So the, the networking aspect is very important, and that's probably one of the reasons why a lot of people don't want attend, because it's like, oh my God, I will always have to be switched on. I'll always have to be talking to people and selling myself and all that. The truth is that, um, to be honest, all the customers I've had in the last two years, they came, I didn't really have to for, they came through referrals and the network. Um, so I think if you're good, you won't have to go so much and find them, but you do have to, to stay alert and, and just be into it and just be able to put things together and be like, ok, how can I turn this into an opportunity for, for, for me? Um, that's, that's one aspect. And then of course, you have to balance your time.
Speaker 0 00:13:54 For me, the first year was, the first few months was a mess, to be honest. After six months, I was almost like, I, it was super fun, but I was also so tired. And in a recruiter role, you're candidate facing and if you're candidates notice that and they'll just, the enthusiasm and everything. And I was like, can't afford this. And, um, you're on your own. So no sick pay, no nothing, you know, so you do have to look after yourself a lot. And that's something I probably had to learn a bit harder way. Um, so of course, one week of no work is one week of no salary for me, uh, these days. So, but the reward that that can bring you in the longer time is so much work for you and your, your customers and for everyone. So I had to learn how to say no a lot more and find the balance.
Speaker 0 00:14:40 And that was hard for me because there were lots of tempting offers. Uh, coming last year was great for recruiters. We, everyone wanted recruiters everywhere. So I was like, well, I can can do it, I can do it. And then at some point you're like, no, stop. Just can't <laugh>. Um, so that was a bit hard on the time management, and then of course, boring things, likes, whatever. But, um, in, it's horrible, to be honest, I, I find it horrible, uh, very scary, uh, at least for me. Um, but, but more on the time <laugh> on the time management, to be honest. And just the anxiety of being like, oh, am I gonna contract in months? In months? But so far it's not happened that I've not without a contract. So, so far so good. But you this a little anxiety, so you do have to in yourself, yeah, your time.
Speaker 0 00:15:31 And the other aspect for me was educational. Um, when companies like talent, and I'm sure they have the best platform for recruiters to grow and to, to learn, we had coaches, we had trainees, we had, uh, learning budget, we had everything. And now being on my own, I was like, well, who's gonna do this for me? Right? Um, so it has to be me. So at some point I had to, um, find the time and also organize the budget for me to, to, to learn and to keep growing. I, I did a coaching course, I'm certing now, and, uh, and that was time and money that I had to essentially block and, and take time to do. But, but I think when it's your money <laugh>, you do it so much more intentionally and so much more, you put your, your heart into it so than when someone else is paying. I, I feel, I dunno. Um, so I didn't take that for granted. Uh, I'm not gonna take it for granted anymore, even if I was to work with someone, so I'll, um, that's, that's important also. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:35 Yeah. I can imagine looking into the future and, and thinking, okay, like, you know, how long is, how long is this contract gonna be? And you almost have to be semi comfortable with a little bit of ambiguity I can imagine. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:16:48 Yeah. And just communicate with your clients a lot, because I remember when in, um, contract was about to run out and I was like, oh, should I ask, should I, um, do they just assume I'm gonna, I'm just gonna an off, what's the plan? So don't be afraid to ask them, you know, if um, by this day you can't, you know, that we extend or, or you know, give me some visibility or at least tell me what you would need, uh, then I'll have to start looking for options. Um, you can't a customer, um, just because you were afraid to have that conversation. And to be honest, I was super afraid to have those conversations in the beginning. I, I'm like, no, I shouldn't. That's so greedy. I shouldn't be asking, you know, um, let them come to you. And then, and then usually they did, but then I'm, I'm also a lot better about approaching these conversations now and, and just asking for, it's a bit scary because they might just say to you, look, no, uh, we actually want to replace you or we just don't need, you would know as a recruiter if they need to keep recruiting probably, but, um, you never know, you know, <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:17:58 And it sounds like it's just a matter of like setting boundaries with and, and your, but also within <inaudible> as well, and like knowing what those boundaries are for
Speaker 0 00:18:10 You. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:18:12 Um, and, and right now I think the, the power of contractors and even that hybrid approach to recruitment, um, where companies like blend in house resource with external TA advisors or embedded, embedded recruiters, contractors, that's really gaining momentum. Um, yeah, and you've definitely seen it here at Seed as well. I know this is something that you do strongly believe in. Um, why do you think approach is, is so effective, especially for those earlier stage companies? And I suppose a second half of that question is like, what role do you feel like it has right now with the evolving economic landscape as well?
Speaker 0 00:18:54 Yeah, so a couple of things here. So why is it important? It's important because not only stage, early stage companies, any company these days, it's obvious they don't have it together, are they just don't know what, uh, they're doing in terms of hiring, sadly. So that puts, that makes recruiter or the recruiter all very vulnerable. And to be honest, I'm worried that it'll put people off from even being a recruiter because it's such a volatile position. Like even the big companies that you, oh, this is not happen there, but it does happen. Recruiters are the, to leave the to door. And, um, and for me, that that was, that was probably the reason why I went also into, into freelancing because like, ok, that's fine, that happens, but at least I will be in charge, you know, the next move. So a freelancer, we minimum three, six months and then we take it from there because I think it's hard to, in some cases, and that's the benefit, um, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:19:53 So much changes so quickly that to commit for a a really long of time like that takes a lot of gambling on their side. So having that flexibility baked into, into partnership is massively key.
Speaker 0 00:20:08 A hundred percent. And, and in the end, who is doing those three months cover or, um, positions that still have to be work, but they might take three months to fill. So yeah, I, I think, you know, more flexible contracts would maybe work better, but in the end, it's true that now if a client can't say, oh, I can't sign for six months because I don't know what's gonna happen, then it's maybe a red black and should I even work with that customer? But I understand that's a free to someone and be like, let's, for a year, unless it's maternity to cover or something, that's a bit, it's maybe a bit unrealistic because you're the value on essentially the proposal on, on you, on the flexibility. Yeah. And then it's on you to, to make a good impression to get an extension and all of that. But, um, but that's why, why I think it works and that's, I always do recommend my clients and to with, without even recommending they just themselves cases. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:21:05 Fantastic. And, and I suppose even more so like that, that point about, um, flexibility is compounded with the economic landscape and potential volatility in the market, and actually the need to, if you do, if you're continuing to hire, um mm-hmm <affirmative> that you want to invest in permanent
Speaker 0 00:21:24 Exactly.
Speaker 1 00:21:26 Like you still have that coverage, you still have the knowledge that I can continue to hire and I'll will keep going as opposed to, to or some sort of, um, deficiency in in, in the recruitment area of the business.
Speaker 0 00:21:41 Exactly. I mean, we've seen recruiters being let go in the pandemic and then being rehired again because recruitment became so, so important and everyone was growing, everyone was funded and now being let go again, uh, because there's a recession, uh, which we don't even know if it's happening, but they say it's gonna happen. So, uh, just to, just to let's, let's let them go and all that, which shows that there is a problem and in, in the way that recruiters come into companies. Um, so, so yeah, I, I I think that there's a benefit in both, uh, approaches for sure. But I would be suspicious if, you know, I work with a client at early stage and they said, oh, I just wanna hire five recruiters, I would really question you to be honest. So, so yeah, that's, that's my <laugh> my opinion, maybe slightly biased opinion, but yes, <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:22:37 And, um, I slightly going back into sort of your experience, especially with the startups and scale up, um,
Speaker 0 00:22:45 What
Speaker 1 00:22:46 Are some of the common mistakes you really see being made from, from a talent acquisition perspective?
Speaker 0 00:22:53 Yeah. Hmm. Usually I would say for sure lack of planning in general. Um, so, you know, sometimes I went there and I didn't see plan for over a year. So that's, um, scary. And then, um, a bit just a top down approach, right? Like, uh, if you hire people, then ask them what do they need to hire it, right? Really challenge them and, and, and just plan just according to make business plan and just plan. But I think in the early stages, um, that just for some reason doesn't take priority and, and then, you know, you end up hiring on demand just being my goal and I need, I need a product manager next month, I need it, I need it immediately. I know that, and that just maybe doesn't guarantee you the best talent. Uh, so yeah. And then just really partnering with your recruiters because in the end, they do hold a lot of market knowledge and they're the ones out there working the position so they can really help you estimate what's realistic for you.
Speaker 0 00:23:55 So I, I, I still believe in lots of companies, recruiters are seen a bit as a or random function. Um, so I'm very lucky that I do work with customers that really do respect what, uh, what recruiters do. But I do know that's not the case. And, and yeah, and I think in the end I was, was talking to a, and I, I think it's, depending how aggressive the culture is, they'll push more and its important to have recruits that can really challenge you and question you and not just say, yes, yes, sure, you know, we'll just hire this, but really understand where does this seat in the organization, how important, and just do some help check before when we hiring, which is what I, I do to do. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:24:40 And, um, I think something that a lot of companies forget is if you are, um, pushing to hire more and more and more, but don't either have the infrastructure or the next level resource in place to make Yep. Make sure that hiring, like do you the right number of managers to properly re to properly interview
Speaker 0 00:25:05 In
Speaker 1 00:25:06 Volume of people. Because if you don't, you're gonna get bottleneck somewhere or inefficiencies or candidates are gonna get annoyed at delay times.
Speaker 0 00:25:14 Yeah, that's one aspect. And then the other one is that, can we, even all these people, because even if I was to hire this for you next month, we can't really onboard all these people. We're just not prepared to do that. And we have to, to be honest, it's not just what's gonna happen to your product or your company. It's more about what's gonna happen to us to these candidates that are, who's gonna take care of them, uh, to these new joiners know that. And I, and that's why also the big learning is that for me, HR was my best friend, so I always partnered so well with hr, um, HR people. <inaudible>, for example, has an amazing HR team, and, um, and I was lucky to help them build it from scratch. So, so to be honest, they were the ones that when a high manager came to me with some idea or, you know, or question or, or questionable crazy idea maybe, I would always go to them and be like, what do you think? And they would be like, okay, let's talk. You know, and they would open the conversations or when you get stuck in a salary negotiation or, or anything like that, or titles, et cetera, they're basically your best partner. Like, you know, not, not the hiring managers only, like, just really hr. So I do, I do tend to get HR very, very involved. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:26:35 Yeah. And, and for you, like, is it, I know you've just mentioned you get HR involved, but especially when it comes to, um, encouraging startups and scale up to really forward plan and I suppose partnering with business leaders to, to upscale and educate them on, on what recruitment takes, um, from a time and a resource perspective. Like how do you tend to go about building those relationships with, with the stakeholders mm-hmm. <affirmative> within the business.
Speaker 0 00:27:07 So usually we, I mean, for example, it's mp. We did a quarterly report, things like time to per, like how we did just to retrospective to see what we've learned mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And in the end, we, we started to plan a lot better for as far as we could in the future with some flexibility. Because for me, I understand if you tell me in December this year we have to hire these people by December next year, I'll take that still with a pinch of salt. Cause that's good. You're thinking so ahead and you're taking to account recruitment and how long it, so some of my times they got really good at doing it just, uh, um, by opening up conversations and showing it data and then just having, um, having examples from the market, um, so that we also do, and then explaining blockers, things like that.
Speaker 0 00:27:59 So that's, that's usually the education. So I think it's, it's more, like I said, for example, our sales department doesn't behave the same way that our engineering department where they're maybe a bit more efficient, you know, when it comes to hiring sales people, maybe they're a bit more disorganized. So you just have to, to see the patterns and then work with them. And then if you had issues with a previous hire, like hiring process, always retrospect, you can't just keep doing, um, the make mistakes over quarters because otherwise, to be honest, you're never gonna manage to engage recruiters. Me as a recruiter, ill just go to, to the manager that well and what I can hire and, and just, you know, and just forget the, um, which is not what you want to happen, of course. So you do have to, to feedback to find ways, um, to, to work well together. It's not just showing you a pipeline and then hoping for the best. So, which I think is what a lot of companies thats, and profiles and all that, but don't talk about the maybe, um, yeah. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:29:08 It's like giving that context and being more like data informed because you might have that data or, um, that context obviously stored in your Yeah, somebody else might not have that context and that perspective. So it's about giving them as much to show that this is a decision or advice, but here is why. And, and I think yes, and certain groups of people will be really data driven and, um, and value that some people might not.
Speaker 0 00:29:41 No, I mean, and I mean, of course there's more to this, right? So we, um, it's true that in ins a lot of people are, or in many companies, a lot of people are hiring managers or interviewers for the first time in their lives. So they just don't, it's true. They probably don't know. Uh, and that's true. So we do also do interview trainings. We do tailor them. We, we get different groups usually mixed and, and we try to explain them why does this matter? What's really how we've been doing for the last quarter? How, how long does it take to hire someone in our company? And, and why does it take this time? And what happens behind the scenes? We give them training around how to partner with recruiters and how to work with recruiters and, um, and then what is expected from them as hiring managers or interviewers in order for us to get offers out.
Speaker 0 00:30:35 So everyone has a role and they should know what their position is in the hiring process. Sometimes you're a hiring manager, sometimes you're an interviewer, sometimes you're a peer, whatever. And, and just clarifying roles and, and, and just, you know, and understanding the context. Why, why are we hiring, why is this important to us to, to do this kind of trainings and have this conversation so that we are also doing, now I do it for clients on a separate basis, just going to workshops for them on this topic. Um, but it's, it's the most important thing. And a company that wants to invest and money doing and to be training workshops is clearly shows that they, they care. So that's already very good <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:31:18 Because I think recruitment as well is quite unique in that you are having to ask for portions of people's time dedicated to you do your job and actually Exactly. And, and you, you do have to get that buy and have that education piece around why it's so important. And actually one of, one of our former partners, Sophie, from on a graph board, built this real culture of everyone's a recruiter, like we are all recruiters, here's how we behave because we're, we are all at heart recruiters. Yes, you're a senior software engineer, but actually you've got a responsibility of bringing in brilliant other software engineers and, and exactly. Building that culture. And I think that you do need that, especially at the early stages, because everybody does have to get stuck in, whether it's through referral jams with the entire company or if they're hiring managers. So Yeah, I like that. And on a lighthearted note, and, and as we come, um, as we sort of start to wrap things up, I, I always think this question tells you lots about people <laugh>. Um, but if you could invite three people, either from the present right now or from history to a dinner party or drinks, who would they be and why? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:32:38 <affirmative>. Yeah. Um, so I thought about this question, uh, it was, um, but in the end, I, so I'll tell you so, and I'll tell you why. So the first one would be Bill Camp, and I will explain who he, I chose him because recently I'm, I'm starting coaching, I'm certifying, and he was a very important coach. He coached some of the people that turned the world and saw the feature like Steve Jobs, like Jeff be, um, like all the, let's say Silicon Valley, um, Techstar, he was, um, he was very behind the scenes, but he was coaching these people and then they wrote a book about him called, uh, trillion. And you have to read it. It's actually a really good book and it's super interesting. Um, and that book inspired me to, to check out what coaching did, because I first thought that coaching was a, and everyone would call, call themselves coach these days on LinkedIn, TikTok, whatever.
Speaker 0 00:33:44 And I was like, no, wait, let's check this out. What can coach coaching do? And then I went through, um, six months, um, coaching course, and now I'm preparing for an exam and everything. So he was, he was amazing. Uh, he, I mean, he explained some of the techniques and how he helped them solve, uh, helped them solve very difficult problems and, and just, you know, um, I guess transform their lives and organize them. So that, that was really inspiring book. Um, so that was cause of coaching. Uh, second is very cliche, but I did read, uh, Michelle Obama, uh, and book and Why, so the other thing I do is volunteering. I coach, um, I mentor refugees coming into Germany and into Europe also for finding new jobs. So I decided to do this when I moved to Berlin, I found an organization, two organizations, one called Ready School of Integration, and the other one is Imagine Foundation.
Speaker 0 00:34:44 And what they do, they, um, they have refugees or people looking for jobs in, in Europe, and I offer a few hours of my week to, to mentor them and help them pass interviews, prepare their cvs, everything. And she did a lot of social work, <laugh>, and she used her position to do social work and, and just do it at a much bigger scale. Uh, so, so that was also very inspiring because that's actually how she also started her career initially. And the third one, um, you maybe, you know, since you do podcasts Fair, uh, has a book. And I always say, uh, because recruiters, they spend so much time interviewing and on screening calls, and I'm always like, I always tell my colleagues I'm the team of recruitment because at some point it's too much, to be honest. So you just have to go there with a bit of, and, uh, and I could spend days on screening calls, you know, so in the end you're like, ok, I'm just gonna treat it a lot of curiosity.
Speaker 0 00:35:44 And I think that's something he does super well. Yeah. And of course, interview also very interesting people, which is, and I do think I interview interesting people. Um, so I'm like, okay, I could come here as a recruiter, I could just come here as someone with a lot of curiosity and uh, interesting, powerful questions. Yeah. And his podcast is just very inspiring for that. So, uh, and I also think he's very interesting. He's done all this stuff and I'm, I'm just, I guess the podcast is one of the things he does days. So you have
Speaker 1 00:36:16 To, I love that. I love all of those suggestions. And I'll have to, um, I'll the organizations that mentioned into our notes, so
Speaker 0 00:36:25 Yeah, thanks
Speaker 1 00:36:26 <inaudible> <laugh> them, but no, Tim Ferris, I think he's fantastic as a great interviewer and just to, yeah, really human and he's a, yeah, fantastic interviewer. So I think it'd be, it'd be great at dinner party <laugh>. Is is there a, a value or a thought or a phrase that you tend to live by your mantra, so to speak?
Speaker 0 00:36:51 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I don't, I have no idea who said this, I have to be honest, but, uh, I, I recently, and it just said, um, and I think it, I actually heard it on one of the coaching courses I did, but it was life, um, life happens, uh, for you, not to you or the other way around, I can't remember. But, uh, basically it's life happens for you, not to you. And I think that reflects a little bit, you know, so what I was mentioning when I made the ship from the employed to self-employment, cause I thought, ok, I could just really believe the narrative that recruitment, I'll never, I'll never get a project or recruitment is, is dead, blah, blah, blah. But just thought, no, wait, that's state and turn this into maybe positive experience and, uh, and see what I can learn from this. Um, because yeah, for me, that that was for someone who's been always doing something that was like, wait, now I have to do, I have to do nothing. I don't, I don't know how to do that. Um, so yeah, so, um, and I just got reminded of that and I thought, okay, that, you know, that really, really aligns with me. So yeah, <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:38:03 I love that. I think that's a fantastic word. I've never heard it before actually. So, um, yeah, that'll definitely be something that I take away. Eva, I have absolutely loved speaking with you today and, um, learning more about your journey. And I think you've got some fantastic perspectives on, especially that transition from, um, sort of being employed to, uh, being freelance and, and your own boss. And I think that mm-hmm. <affirmative> of life happens for you not to, you really sums that up nicely. So it's been such a pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 0 00:38:35 Thank you. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you. So all questions, everything and, uh, thank you so much for preparing this really.
