Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:06 Um, and finally, uh, again, you know, this mantra, but we espouse it as a graph where everyone is a recruiter, but the recruitment team can't do it by themselves. They shouldn't do it by themselves. Um, it's on all of us, you know, to, to help build the company.
Speaker 1 00:00:26 Okay. Welcome back to the scaling. So fast series folks, uh, mad to think that we're on series two, episode two already, uh, but super excited to introduce today's guest and somebody that we've worked incredibly closely with as a partner here at seed guy, Franklin guy is a talent acquisition director. I are unicorn graph core formerly global head of TA at Dyson and guide joined graph Corp in 2019, and is now responsible for all of their recruitment activity across the company, focusing hugely on maintaining their high bar hiring mentality and securing the right people to help them achieve their mission more on which you'll hear about short different guy, guys, welcome to the podcast. How are you today?
Speaker 0 00:01:17 Thank you very much for that. Yeah, I'm very good. Thanks. Looking forward to Christmas after what's been a crazy year, all things being equal, but all good things.
Speaker 1 00:01:25 It certainly has. And it's crazy. We launched them. We launched series one of his podcasts when, when locked down just started and it's crazy to think that was basically nine months ago. Right. So, um, it'd be great to kick off. If you could tell us a little bit about your story, you know, have you always been in, in startup or people focused roles? It'd be great for the listeners to get some context there.
Speaker 0 00:01:52 Yeah, sure. So, um, I guess, you know, going way back, like many people will, most of us like fell into recruitment, um, which, you know, gave me the opportunity. I'm fascinated by people. I also love technology, typically the cutting edge kind of breakthrough stuff. Um, but no, I haven't always been in started. Um, I kind of ended up here through, through kind of laterally the last couple of roles in my, in my career. Um, because I lost, I guess I love the combination of, of, of that tactical and that strategic element that you, you only really get truly in a, in a startup or scale-up. So, um, you know, let's say the last few roles, um, both at Dyson and here have kind of, um, really, really kind of push those two together, which has been, which has been amazing.
Speaker 1 00:02:35 Excellent. And I think you and I kind of worked at the same company or part of the same group, um, going back many, many years, uh, the in Pelham group, um, I a blast from the past, for the past, I worked for Eskom technology, which became part of Carlisle. And then, and then in Pelham group, uh, in 2006, 2007, I think.
Speaker 0 00:03:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, we would have cropped, well, maybe not cross, but certainly, yeah, that was a part of the group I was in from 2008 onwards. Yeah. And again, you know, technology focused, um, great, great place to be
Speaker 1 00:03:12 Cool. And now T I D TA director at graph core, um, can you tell us a bit about the company, um, and its mission and vision? I obviously know very well. Um, but for those who are listening, it'd be great to know more.
Speaker 0 00:03:25 So yeah. Graph core is, uh, what we, four years old now 450 people give or take, um, global business, um, uh, privately owned. So we're still in a, in, in, in private hands investors, including BMW, Dell, Microsoft Sequoia, et cetera, uh, to name, but a few, um, from a mission perspective, we are in the process and are in fact building the next generation of leading technology and that allow us to build intelligent machines, um, and make the next sort of breakthrough in machine learning AI effectively. So, um, we've already got our second generation IPU, which is intelligence processing unit chip out. Um, when that's designed to achieve a better form of AI processing power in the size of a pizza box to our paraphrased or, uh, or CEO, um, yeah, we're, we're in the AI chip space, um, and I'm loving it.
Speaker 1 00:04:15 Awesome. And what's the journey like there so far? Um, the company sends some incredible, incredible success, um, unicorn status, um, you know, astonishing technology developed. Um, what's that look like from a scaling people perspective for you over the past year or so busy?
Speaker 0 00:04:38 Uh, it's stating the obvious, but, um, it's like that old, um, Tom and Jerry cartoon where they're riding on a toy train and Gary's at the front Tom's at the back handing Jerry the, uh, the track, uh, as they're going along, it felt very much like, like that, which again, I, you know, I love, I really enjoy that, that, um, so, you know, there's a bit of, bit of chaos, um, in their, um, millions of shades of gray, uh, challenge. Um, you know, there's nothing kind of pretty much nothing there in terms of systems processes. Well, there wasn't initially, so, um, yeah, it's been, it's been a, it's been a crazy, crazy ride, really enjoyable so far doubled the size of the company last year alone from head count perspective. Um, and despite COVID this year, we've grown 25%. So, um, you know, it's, uh, yeah, busy, uh, but it's the perfect blend, as I mentioned earlier, kind of that, what I love, which is that tactical and that strategic,
Speaker 1 00:05:34 I love the explanation of the, uh, of the truck being laid as you're driving at full speed. I think many of us can relate to that. Definitely. And what have been some of your biggest learnings? Um, I guess sort of from, from both with graph Corp and I guess other organizations that you've worked at, like, I'm sure there are many, but yeah. Perhaps with there kind of one or two pieces of advice you'd love to pass on to others.
Speaker 0 00:06:01 Uh, so I've got four. Um, I'll keep rolling. Um, which again, I've kind of collected over the years and distilled down, but I think one, typically this applies in a, in, in the startup scale-up, um, environment where it's about having that flexible mindset. So, you know, needing to be comfortable with, as I mentioned with, with, with umpteen different shades of gray and stepping outside of your comfort zone, um, you know, your job won't be in a box. It won't be one dimension. It will be five, six, seven, eight dimensional in that type of environment. So that's the first thing. Um, second thing which, uh, you know, comes from both Dyson and, and here is don't be afraid, afraid, sorry to try new things. So, um, you know, trying things failing, but failing fast, um, and, you know, failing is okay so long as you're learning.
Speaker 0 00:06:48 Um, so again, no one is going to give you all the answers. You've got to go out there and try things. Um, thirdly, I think particularly graph core. It's about it's that track thing again, it's iterating as you go. So nothing is ever going to be shiny and perfect for you to, to, you know, when you go out and launch it straight away. Um, so, so learn from it, launch it, learn from it, tweak and optimize. Um, you know, and we've done that with our ATS, which, you know, you guys helped us with and we launched it, which is, which was great as a baseline. We then tweaked it, optimized it to make it even slicker even more robust as we've gone. Um, and finally, uh, we, again, you know, this mantra, but we, we espoused it. It's a graphical particularly where everyone is recruiter, the recruitment team can't do it by themselves and they shouldn't do it by themselves. Um, it's on all of us, you know, to, to, to help build the company. So those are kind of my four takeaways, I guess so far in, in, in, in terms of my journey.
Speaker 1 00:07:40 Awesome. I'm going to ask you a question around one of those topics, because I absolutely love that everyone is a recruiter, um, statement, mindset, philosophy, however you want to refer to it. Well, I think would be super interesting as is to share some concrete examples, um, of, of how that translates into business, because I guess it's a challenge for some recruiters and some recruiting managers did that kind of, it's somewhat separate entity. It feels like from the organization and working in isolation, there are say sometimes against the business. So yeah, I'd love to hear how you're fostering that culture of everyone from being a recruiter. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:08:20 I think it comes down to ownership. So I think it comes down to the fact that as a hiring manager or as a leader, you know, it's not just, um, you know, handing it out to the recruitment team who are order-takers, this is about you owning that, that, you know, it's your hire, um, it's your process. Um, we are here as a TA function to, to facilitate and support you in that, be that through, through sourcing, arranging interviews, interviewing, screening, whatever it, you know, bringing the technology into bear, whatever it happens to be, but ultimately that decision, um, and the ownership is, is yours. So it's that partnership. Um, and in fact, you know, as I say, it's, it's, it should be the hiring manager driving that, that partnership, not, not the other way round that I think in organizations where I've worked previously. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:09:00 It's been very much, the recruiter has been, you know, the, the order taker and yes. So no, sir, off your cap, let's go find X, Y, Z, and here's a long list of things that you want and I'll go and, you know, satisfy them that, that, that shouldn't be, shouldn't be done. Certainly isn't the case from, from a graphical perspective. So, I mean, having sit down meetings, you know, briefing conversations where you're talking to the hiring manager and that team, you know, on a simple level, you know, who do you know who's been great to work with in the past, who hasn't, um, really kind of getting, not just a referral conversation going, but then talking about the process who's going to be doing, what, how is that going to kick off who's owning it? Um, so yeah, and, and as I say, you're all driven with, with, from, from, from a hiring manager.
Speaker 1 00:09:40 Perfect. I think that level of partnership is, is often a determining factor between success and failure in a truly cohesive, um, function alignment really, I think is the best way to put that. Brilliant. Thanks for sharing that many is in recruitment. Um, and I'm sure there's a few of these, but what would you say is the biggest, uh, the S advice, um, when it comes to scaling teams, particularly for sort of early stage organizations, what's one myth that you'd say needs to be avoided or, or put in the trash
Speaker 0 00:10:16 It's, uh, it might not be BS per se, but, but the idea or temptation that, you know, when you're in a, uh, startup or scale-up environment, you always have to run it a hundred miles an hour in order to succeed. Um, you know, everything has to be done yesterday and if it's not done quickly enough, then I think, you know, particularly when it comes to hiring, getting it wrong, uh, particularly in, uh, you know, start up or scale up, um, environment where it's very small, you don't have that many people that it's just stands out like a sore thumb. Uh, and so, you know, again, there's a, there's a mantra that the, the us special forces use, which is, you know, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Um, and, and I hold that, you know, particularly accounting, you know, in terms of, of hiring, I hold that in mind.
Speaker 0 00:10:58 So it's about being more measured. It's about not rushing the approach. Uh, it's keeping the, you mentioned the bar high. Um, it's better to say no than the no, maybe, um, you know, and all of those sorts of things are likely to breed success and growth, um, in a more, um, considered and measured way, rather than, as I say, running around interviews, I've got to do this, I've got 50, you know, it, that, that, that, that, that just never worked. So sometimes being a bit slower, being a bit more measured, um, will actually get you where you want to go more and more quick.
Speaker 1 00:11:29 Yeah, that's a great point. And how, how do you as a TA leader, I guess from, um, cooperation with other other leaders in the organization and also kind of managing your team, what advice do you give to them, you know, specifically around this particular topic, because I think it's a hugely valuable one. And like you say, people can misconstrue the, uh, the pace, um, definition in, in, in early stage companies. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:11:55 I, and again, I just reiterate the point that, you know, being deliberate, being focused in what we're doing, um, you know, and, and actually, you know, it's a cultural thing as well in some, you know, we're kind of in the middle, I guess, in the UK, but if we think about some of our offices, you know, they, they are much more, um, there is a slower pace of life generally in, in, in, in, in, in the country. So, um, just, just paying attention to that, um, it's better to get it right. Um, you know, more, you know, more slowly, more deliberately than, than, you know, attempting to rush things through, push things through. Cause that's when mistakes happen, um, you know, things fall apart, candidates dropout or whatever it happens to be. So just almost, I guess, being considered, consider it to that, to that, taking a step back, pausing, breathing, you know, we take a breath, you know, rather than, you know, just say whatever comes into your head.
Speaker 0 00:12:47 So, um, all of those things, I think, um, you know, it is difficult, you know, if you come from the recruitment agency world, you know, when you've got KP on or back in the day, back in my day is KPI's two hours on the phone in the morning, two hours on the phone in the afternoon, why you sent this many CVS out and it's not like that anymore. Certainly not. It is about quality over quantity. Um, so all of those things, I think, you know, it's about, uh, breeding that environment, encouraging that environment where people feel comfortable, um, to, um, to, to, to be themselves and to do things the right way rather than any old.
Speaker 1 00:13:21 Awesome. Thank you very much for sharing that. So, um, at the end of a, a big year, a big push, um, looking forward to 2021, um, what does the road ahead look like for the graphical
Speaker 0 00:13:35 Unsurprisingly busy? Uh, I think, uh, you know, it's, uh, yeah, next up is more growth, um, growth, but not just in terms of head count, you know, we're looking at, um, growing by third next year, give or take, um, which is more than we've done this year, but not quite as much as last year. So there, we're still on the upward curve, which is great. Um, but more importantly growth in customers. So the commercial activity, you know, starting to ramp up, um, but that aside we're putting in a new people system, uh, we're putting in development programs for, for our, for our people, for our managers. Um, I'm, I'm working with some really exciting companies. Um, so it's, it's another big year in prospect for us. Definitely.
Speaker 1 00:14:14 Awesome. Sounds great. And it sounds like, uh, a big focus for you is on sort of the management and leadership development, as well as sort of employee engagement and everything with the kinds of falls under that banner. Um, why do you think that's so important that your stage of growth, um, and what sorts of measures have you, or will you put in place to be able to track the success of these types of activities?
Speaker 0 00:14:38 So I think, you know, we've, you know, we, as we said, we spent the last 18 months growing very, very rapidly. We've got really great people together, um, across, across our offices, across the globe. Um, now we need to almost, um, you know, use an analogy, you know, we need to go from being a sort of teenager to, to being an adult in terms of a company we need to put meat on the phones, muscle mass, blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, we, we want to encourage our people to, um, to develop, um, acro of course, show them a career path, give them the development plans, um, and, and the, and the support from a, from a talent development perspective, but also engage them as well. You know, w w are we doing everything right? Like, well, let's find out, it's asked the question. So, you know, we're putting out a, um, a people survey. Um, in fact, it's just, just closing tomorrow. I think. So we'll get the data back from that, um, you know, early, early in January to find out kind of how are we doing, you know, posts, post check. So, um, yeah, really important that, you know, great that we've hired lunch, uh, you know, a bunch of really smart, clever people, but now we need to make sure that we can offer them that, that longer term vision and that commitment.
Speaker 1 00:15:44 Yeah. I remember reading something how to toss it along the lines of you've got the talent now. Um, and this, like you say, it sounds like you're in that phase of, of business maturity, um, it might seem obvious to you and I, but it might be worth you kind of sharing your thoughts on what happens if an organization doesn't focus on this type of activity, you know, particularly after and during periods of high growth.
Speaker 0 00:16:09 Hmm. So, you know, again, there's a fantastic, uh, meme or cartoon. I think it's where the CEO, the CFO is talking. I forget now where, you know, the, um, the CFO says, well, you know, what, why would we develop our people? And, you know, and, uh, and then they go off and leave and the CEO said, well, if you don't develop a people, you know, it's, it's, it's that, it's that whole, whole, whole piece, you know, we, we, we, we, we ha w we have to do that. You know, we, we attrition we'll grow engagement. We'll, we'll, we'll rise, uh, or disengagement rise. Um, you know, it's, it's like a safe, you know, if we can and the best talent acquisition team in the world, and we putting in great people at the top of the funnel, but if you've got your best people falling out to the side, because expectations aren't aligned because they aren't being developed because they can't see where they're going and the longer the roadmap, um, then, then, you know, frankly, well, what's the point.
Speaker 1 00:17:02 Yeah. And this is something from my personal experience, um, founding a company and having supported kind of 50 others. This is something that catches up on you very, very quickly. Right. Um, you just feel like you're, you're wiping your brow after a concentrated period of growth, and then very quickly, if not already, um, there's an expectation or appetite from the organization around certain levels of structure where it's appropriate, right. From a career development perspective, as the business grows, things that previously worked, perhaps didn't work now and things start to evolve. So, yeah, I think it's a super, super important element of scale. I think sometimes it's something that not everybody, but some forget and then scratch their head as to say, cool, why are all these great people hired leaving? Um, there needs to be a firm's strategy on that. So thanks for sharing that topic. Um, what would you say is one challenge when it comes to scaling? Um, I guess people in talent as a function, but also as a valued product of the organization. Um, if you could maybe wave a magic wand, um, that you'd love to be able to fix,
Speaker 0 00:18:16 I guess it's the age old problem is how do you keep your culture as you arrive? How do we keep, what makes graph core graph core as we continue to add more people, you know, becomes much harder to do that. You know, the more people you have, the more locations you open. I mean, we've opened up in, um, you know, new locations this year in Germany, Belgium, um, people in Japan and in Taiwan, Korea, you know, how do you glue it all together and how do you, um, keep what makes you special? Um, and so, you know, I'll, I'll answer the followup question now. Um, how are we doing that? You know, it's, um, it's about, I think consistency of process, and I think it's, again, back to involving the business, the whole business, um, it's keeping the bar high again. And, and, and that's the temptation, you know, as you get bigger, you know, actually, is it watered down?
Speaker 0 00:19:11 Is it filtered down the lower stuff, but actually, no, you need to keep it at that level because that's what part of what makes us who we are. Um, so yeah, it, it, isn't easy though. And I think, you know, having clear, um, mission, vision, um, aligning yourselves and being clear about what we, we value as a company in catering that to everybody, whether they're in Bristol, Cambridge, or, or, uh, or Beijing, um, that's, that's the key, and that is what we're, you know, what we're working hard on and we'll have to continue to work harder. So that's the magic wand. That's the wish the Christmas wish if, if you can grow on that for me, Matthew,
Speaker 1 00:19:50 I'm afraid I can't grow on that, but as I understand, scaling culture is, is crucial. Um, and have you found any, any kind of nuance too? I mean, you already have many new new locations anyway, so perhaps it's the same experience, but have you noticed that he nuance or additional challenge in a world where we're kind of working almost entirely remotely?
Speaker 0 00:20:13 Yeah, I, you know, onboarding, we've continued, as I said, we hired, um, you know, close to a hundred people this year and we've had some on board. Most of them, in fact, nearly all of them through, through remote means. So yes, they've, they've had some touch points in the office, but by and large, it's been, you know, zoom. And so dealing with zoom, fatigue, dealing with all that, the, the, uh, the problems that, that, that, that this remote world, um, to generate, but equally the flip sides of the positives as well. So, um, no, there's no silver bullet, I think is about just constant communications. You know, we know we, we, we have bi-weekly update from, from at least one of our two co-founders, if not the, the, the exec team. So constant kind of, this is where we're going. This is what we're doing.
Speaker 0 00:20:58 This is the activity. So everybody is in the, in the loop on that, which is great. Um, it's about encouraging team to team conversation because that's the, you know, and the, and the water cooler moments as well. You know, the often they're, they, they're the conversations that get stuff done, um, you know, very quickly. And so it's, it's, it's trying to replicate that sort of environment. And we've spent a lot of time as well, finally, on thinking about the, the mental wellbeing and support elements. So, um, you know, very clear that that's, you know, that's something that we need to, um, to be strong, to make sure that, you know, when it all comes together, anyone who comes into the, uh, to the, to the business feels, feels that they're supported. It feels like they're part of something they know where they're going, they know how their role fits into that. Um, and so all of those things, hopefully when you glue them all together, provide that.
Speaker 1 00:21:45 Yeah. And I hope you guys can get it back into the office soon because it is a, and I'm not somebody that's a wild by, you know, office spaces or, uh, you know, senior remote first organization. Um, but the space you guys have in Bristol that visit is remarkable, um, and fantastic coffee as well. So you guys can get back there soon. Um, so a few closing questions. Um, is there anything that you listen to or watch for inspiration?
Speaker 0 00:22:16 So I'm all over Ted talks generally. Um, I have been since pretty much, um, founded in and hopefully once things get back up and running and open on, on, you know, I want to get myself along to, uh, one of their conferences, particularly as they hold them in some pretty nice locations. Um, I'm all over, uh, Simon Sinek. Anything that man has to say is usually, uh, mind-blowingly amazing. And I've got pretty much every book, every podcast, everything he's ever written. So, um, you know, and I think start with why is a, you know, an absolute must for, um, for anyone who's involved with, you know, people, leadership management development, um, whatever it happens to be. So I'm a big fan of big fan of Simon's
Speaker 1 00:22:55 Awesome. And is there a particular thought or value or phrase that you live by?
Speaker 0 00:23:02 So it was interesting, I think from, from, um, watching and listening lost to your last, uh, last episode, um, you know, I, I am a massive fan of hiring people who are better at what they do than I am. Um, yes. You know, I take the point from last week where, you know, you need to give them that, that framework, that, that, that, that reference guide to, um, to, to help them be their best selves. Um, but you know, that that's the point of hiring great people. You have them tell us what we should be doing, not hiring them and then telling them what they should be doing. So, um, yeah, you know, I'm, I'm lucky I've, I've, I've worked with and have right now a, a fantastic team who are great at what they do and, and in their own better, better than better than I am, which is, which is great. That's exactly, exactly what I, what I am too.
Speaker 1 00:23:53 Awesome. I think that's super valuable. And, um, I think I mentioned this on a company update yesterday. I was introducing has a function who are infinitely more capable than I am, um, at running the departments. They do. Um, it's not an easy thing to live. Um, I've had this conversation with many people before, and I think like many phrases, um, sounds great. Um, but that's probably become, and I've certainly found this myself, that becomes a point of like a self maturity. Um, as you develop in your career that you realize, yes, this makes sense. And you, you, you get your rewards from seeing other people succeed, right. Um, for you kind of, do you agree, there's like a tipping point or maturity point where you can actually live that, uh, that mantra and, you know, what do you think kind of builds up to that?
Speaker 0 00:24:43 Yeah, I do agree. I don't know where the line is or what that, that point, the army son, something that kind of think back, you know, it, you go through a, I guess, a development phase in your career where perhaps, you know, you feel, um, you know, you're new into a role or you're, you're, you're at a certain point in your career. Maybe there's, you know, there's other people who are, um, uh, further up the ladder and you there's too much looking, looking off. And, and, but actually you get to a point where, you know, as I say, as you start to manage people, I think it is that change. It's going from that individual contributor to manager and that you get into your second, third, it's kind of people management leadership role. When you realize that, you know, you are only as good as the sum of the parts. And so, so that point that the light bulb for me was, wow, okay. If I'm only as good as a, as a leader, if I'm only as good as the sum of my parts and my past would be very good, if not better than definitely better than me. Um, because I'm, you know, otherwise you're a Jack of all trades and a master of none. So, um, I think yes, for me, that was one or two roles ago.
Speaker 1 00:25:44 So, um, is there a people leader, founder, or source of inspiration that you think we should try and secure as a future guest?
Speaker 0 00:25:52 Um, well look, if you can get hold of him, then it will be, uh, be amazing and curiosity if you do. But, um, I'm a big fan of Elan Musk. Um, I'm not a fan of everything that he does, but, um, you know, it's undeniable that he, that he gets that he gets results. Um, he's delivered some incredible advances, you know, again, back to the people and their technology, um, kind of comment I made earlier, you know, he aligns those amazingly well in terms of his ability to scale up. Um, and so to push the boundaries of technology beyond, um, what, what, what, where they are today. So, um, yeah, again, not, not, uh, not, not, not to be, um, taken with less than a pinch of salt, but a, you know, a great, great guy have some amazing ideas and, um, yeah, from a founder and an insight perspective, he'd be a fascinating,
Speaker 1 00:26:40 Awesome. Certainly something for us to aspire to deep. Thank you very much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure catching up and, um, thank you to everyone who listened then. Thanks, Matt.
Speaker 2 00:26:53 <inaudible>.
