Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 If we measure by time to hire, do we then hire the right people?
Speaker 1 00:00:05 Mm.
Speaker 0 00:00:06 If we only measure by cost of hire, do we then spend resources the right way? And if we measure quality of hire, then how do we actually measure that? Is it just by whether or not they stay in the company or should we also look at their performance, but then, then we can't do that metric the first six months, right. Or the first year we have to say, do they stay the first year? And then we have to see do they actually perform after that first year? So I, I, I gotta say, I mean, there are plenty of things we can measure on, but I think we have to, especially, you know, Vivino is a tech company. We're innovative, we're at the front of something. We can't do things in recruitment like we did in the nineties. Then it's not con consistent with the values of the company. Right.
Speaker 1 00:00:56 Heidi, I am so excited to be chatting with you today. It feels like it's been a long time coming. And, um, yeah, obviously seeing your presence across LinkedIn and engaging with sort of each other's posts, but finally being able to speak to each other, which is just such a pleasure. So thank you for joining us on the, so podcast first off,
Speaker 0 00:01:16 Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Um, I've really been looking forward to this and like you say, we've been engaging on LinkedIn and other medias for quite some time, so yeah, I'm really stuck to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:01:29 And just for our listeners and to kick us off, like, could you tell us just a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 0 00:01:34 Absolutely. Um, so like on, on I personal side, um, a twin mom, and I like to say that because having twins, uh, when I was 45 years old was really a life changer going from being a career oriented, very focused woman, um, to suddenly having to take care of kids, um, was quite a life changer. So that, that was a life lesson. And then something that has, um, definitely impacted my life the last five years. Um, and then, uh, I'm married. I live outside Copenhagen in the countryside, uh, on a professional base. I actually came into HR, uh, a little bit weird, I would say because I spent about eight years in telco, um, where I was working as a secretary, as a coordinator. And then the last five years I worked as a product manager, um, and responsible for developing products. And at that time that was actually from the concept to developing it, to launching it and the whole marketing.
Speaker 0 00:02:36 So you got the whole life cycle of a product and ensuring the business case around it. And then I came by accident into HR 15 years ago, and I got a sniff of recruitment and I've been here ever since. Um, I think what I really love about sound acquisition is because it had to do with people and I always like that interaction with people. And so I started out with being a coordinator. Then I became a recruiter. Then I became responsible for recruitment and globally responsible. So doing these things and building recruitment from scratch in different companies is what I've been doing for the past 15 years.
Speaker 1 00:03:17 Amazing. And if, is there anything specific that you took from sort of that product management role into your role now? Like
Speaker 0 00:03:26 Yeah, I
Speaker 1 00:03:27 <inaudible>,
Speaker 0 00:03:28 Yeah. I usually say that I I'm like a three-legged tool because I have, uh, a communications background by education. I'm an English Spanish translator. So that communication, cultural understanding, understanding how to communicate with different target groups, um, then marketing and, uh, strategy business cases, understanding the innovativeness of building new things from my product manager time. And then of course, HR, I've been doing almost everything within HR to one extend or another, but really the focus has been employer branding and talent acquisition. So it's like those three legs and using that, using the business side and the business understanding. Yeah. And understanding what it's all about taking that into TA I think.
Speaker 1 00:04:14 Mm. And you've obviously seen that more holistic view, as you said, of the entirety of the business from like that full life cycle, product management and marketing, and being able to have that holistic view and yeah. It must be super, super valuable.
Speaker 0 00:04:31 Yeah. I think, I think really the understanding of, of not only being operational, but being tactical and strategic about the function as well.
Speaker 1 00:04:39 Yeah. Amazing. And so TAing
Speaker 0 00:04:46 Was lucky enough. So it's
Speaker 1 00:04:58 That you just tell us a, a bit about the company's mission and vision.
Speaker 0 00:05:03 Absolutely. It was funded 10 years ago by, and, and, um, they're both things actually. He is from fair islands, but they're both things and they founded it 10 years ago from actually going into stores and trying to figure out what's wine to, to drink. Um, because you don't know, you go to somebody who knows something in the store and you are reliant on their opinion. So it started out, uh, to being a wine scanning app. So you can scan the label and then you can get the information about the wine and then you start building a community around those ratings from the community. So instead of, instead of a Solia or all these, um, elitist within the business, telling you which wine you should be drinking, this is actually people like you giving your, their opinion about what, uh, wine you should be drinking and what it has developed into.
Speaker 0 00:05:57 Now, what we are actually now is the world's largest online marketplace wine, meaning that we are a community based eCommerce platform powered by personalization. And that, and one of the things I absolutely love about the product is that if you start rating the wines, uh, that you drink or you taste, you can get a personalized recommendation, uh, as to whether or not that is a fit for you. Um, so the company has offices in 17 entities. We're about 300 people now, and we actually are entering into China even now, uh, where they're building it all from scratch to fit the Chinese market. Um, so yeah, RiNo is the world's one step for wine.
Speaker 1 00:06:39 I love that. And I am a avid user <laugh> this is, uh, we're probably talking about one of my favorite topics being wine right now. <laugh> yeah, yeah. I've used Bino for quite some time and I absolutely love it as a, as a consumer. Um, so yeah, hence why I was also very excited to be speaking with me <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:07:02 But I, I gotta say being at breakfast recently, it was just, um, amazing working for Vivino. I've never had that kind of feedback from people on the product and it just makes you so proud to be in the company when you're experienced that.
Speaker 1 00:07:15 Yeah. And, and I think what you said about, you know, it almost like more so democratizing access to wine knowledge where previously it has sometimes been quite elitist and, you know, you do get your sort of master smell is, and, uh, you look at a review or what something tastes like, and it's, you know, a freshly opened kind of tennis or something
Speaker 0 00:07:41 Like what grass
Speaker 1 00:07:50 Haven't that. So I just like people who are just like you and I tasting wine and reviewing it and explaining it, it's so much more helpful. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:08:06 Absolutely
Speaker 1 00:08:07 Brilliant. So, so you joined back in Jan, is that right?
Speaker 0 00:08:12 That's true.
Speaker 1 00:08:13 The company raised series D you've got some amazing investors as well, border term Canne, Creon. Um, and I think the press release at the time mentioned you would be growing the team significantly, as you mentioned, where you're today, which is around 300, um, and massively exciting challenge to walk into. I'm sure. Exciting, daunting all of the above. Um, I'd love to hear what your experience has been likeno um, yeah. What you've been to over the past couple of years, um, or yeah, just what the journeys been like for you.
Speaker 0 00:08:54 Yeah, it's it was absolutely crazy. I started in January and I was till, probably around 40 to 60, 40 to 60 recruitments were gonna hire over the year and I'm thinking, yeah, I can do that. I just came back. The twins were three and a half. We've just been through COVID, um, the first round of COVID and, you know, just life had changed and you were, you were just in a different place. And I was looking for a space where I could try to build my career again, after being a little bit out on maternity leave and changing jobs and stuff. And just coming back to a space where I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm just join the company where it's fun, dynamic, maybe not crazy. And just take it from there, go back to my basics of just, you know, recruiting and building things up slowly.
Speaker 0 00:09:40 Yeah. And three months later, wham, it's like, okay, um, now it's not 60, now it's 160, um, come up with a plan to do that. Yeah. So we did, um, and it was basically the, I was the fifth person in HR to be hired. I think we're 17 now. Wow. Um, we, I was the first to work specifically with TA and we're a team of five. So one of the things I had to do was of course build a TA team. Yeah. Um, we had to change our ATS because it wasn't really working for us from a scalable point of view, but the things we wanna do going forward. So we implemented a new ATS. We implemented a measurement of candidate experience so that we can measure on data, the candidate experience, we implemented, uh, an ATS. And, uh, then we actually ended up hiring 156 people A2, three of them were growth.
Speaker 1 00:10:39 Wow.
Speaker 0 00:10:40 So yeah,
Speaker 1 00:10:42 That's
Speaker 0 00:10:42 Credible. It was fun.
Speaker 1 00:10:44 <laugh> it was, it was, it started, as you said off this slightly smaller. Um, but yeah. Having to sort of adapt and very quickly sort of, um, you know, think, okay, how do I achieve this new target <laugh> yeah. Um, is, is incredible. So, yeah,
Speaker 0 00:11:03 But I, but I think I've always been in high growth companies. So when I joined ramble, for example, we were to grow 20% and 10% of that should be organic. Um, that was ramble oil and gas, uh, in the great, um, time where the barrel was like, uh, a hundred dollars and not like it is now. Wow. Um, so I, I, and even though I've been in corporate setting a lot of the time, most of the time when TA have been in corporate setting, it's always been about the growth aspect of it and building these things, things from scratch. So I, I don't feel like, of course, yeah, that's a lot of, uh, head counts, but, you know, I I've done that before. Um, the new thing was within tech and also building the team yeah. And preparing the organization because they had not really been part of that before they had not done that hyper growth necessarily before.
Speaker 1 00:11:57 Yeah. And, um, and almost, I think a lot of people I speak to do reference this, but like driving the car whilst also changing the wheels and like doing an airplane whilst checking the engine and
Speaker 0 00:12:12 Yeah, yeah. We talked about the rocket ship, cuz that was us past, it was going like we're building we're on the way to Mars, but we're building the rocket as we go.
Speaker 1 00:12:20 Yeah. It sounds like a huge achievement. And, and you were able to sort of see those levers that you needed to, to pull and to work on and to change in order to achieve that real high growth. So amazing. And, and something that I know you've worked on and been working on is reshaping the candidate journey at Theo. Um, can I ask what it looked like before, what it looks like now, what drove the sort of momentum behind, um, really shaping that journey. Um, and some of like the results of the impact that you've seen.
Speaker 0 00:12:53 Yeah. Um, oh, another questions I'll try to see if I can remember it all. <laugh> um, so I, I think one thing that that really is the core of me is the candidate journey and the candidate experience I've been highly inspired of course, by Virgin media and the whole way that coming from, looking at a customer to, um, a candidate and what it costs, if you don't create a great candidate experience and having that business mindset of TA driving the business is really my thought behind it. So what I'm when I build these things, when I think these things, I always think, okay, so what is it that the business needs? What is our strategic goals? Okay. So we are an eCommerce platform powered by personalization. So what is it that, what kind of candidate experience should we then create? Okay. We should create something that's got to do with community feeling something that's got to do with commercial and something that's got to do with personalization.
Speaker 0 00:13:55 And then how do we break that down to creating a great candidate experience? Um, so I mean, before let's do the before picture, this is, this was an organization, um, that had experienced some growth, but they were very used to hiring one at a time and then onboarding that person and hiring another and onboarding that person just before I joined, a lot of people was, uh, also promoted because they had, they had been in the company for a long time, were really good people. And now they were building their teams to scale, uh, especially when we got the funding. So, but they had not necessarily done that before. So really understanding how can you support hiring managers that have not been used to hiring at that scale before? How can you onboard employees? Um, it's really been about, um, we had this ATS that was working perfectly when you only had maybe 10, 15 recruitments, but when you had 80, uh, you just completely lost overview of it, both us and TA and the hiring managers, um, that was not really a standardization on how we hire.
Speaker 0 00:15:05 It was just like every man for himself or every woman for himself, every person for themselves. Um, and that kind of mindset is not good when you wanna both be more effective. And if you wanna create a good candidate experience, it has to be more unified in how you do. And then there was absolutely no sourcing. Um, we're completely dependent on agencies to do the sourcing and helping us finding the candidates. So that's kind of like where we started out mm-hmm um, so the first thing for me was to build the team while trying to fly it. Um, and, and then just to, to just give the tools and just try to at least just keep an overview of things. So that, that's what I did. And then what we have done now is obviously, like I said before, we've implemented a new ATS that can support that growth that can actually enable us to work differently in how we wanna create that candidate journey.
Speaker 0 00:16:00 Yeah. Um, we launched, I wouldn't say it, it's not really, it, you know, it's a career landing page we're still on, on building it. Um, but at least there's something from, uh, for the, the hiring, um, or for the candidates to, to come to, uh, afterwards we implemented a new ETS. Um, we have started, we have defined a global process. We're getting feedback from the business now and learning like, okay, does this work here? Should we tweak it there? Yeah. And then we're implementing that global process, um, all over and we're really partnering with the organization rather than letting them just do their own thing. We're really following the candidate journey from start to finish. And we are at almost 100% in house sourcing now. So we, we try not to use agencies. Yeah. And then of course we're measuring the candidate experience and we're just about to launch, um, another feedback because when candidates come through agencies, we don't have the same control over the candidate experience. Yes. Um, because we can, candidates are like partially with the agency partially with us. So that flow that we had created couldn't really measure the candidate experience. So we're doing something about that now. Um, and so we can make better decisions made based on data
Speaker 1 00:17:24 Side of things, tracking experience there. Other indicators is this working, you know, when you are speaking to hiring managers, how, or, or looking at your data, how are you understanding if, what these, these changes you are making, whether they are affecting sort of possible?
Speaker 0 00:17:45 I, I think like the majority of my career I've been traditional in me measuring, uh, me doing these metrics like everybody else. So it's been time to hire or fill, it's been quality of hire. It's been cost of hire though. I, I usually start with like the basics and then I, I put something on when we can achieve the basics and then we can start measuring, uh, candidate experience and hiring manager experience and onboarding experience, these kind of things. Right. Um, but I'm, I'm, I gotta say I'm moving more away from that because when we talk about the business and delivering to the business, you can do, you, can, you have like this triangle of cost and speed and quality.
Speaker 1 00:18:26 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:18:26 And, and you, you know, you can only choose two. Yeah. And actually what I've said, like with the year that we've had, you can only choose one. Yeah. So, you know, it can be high quality, but then it won't be fast and cost less. Yeah. Or you can do a high cost and maybe you can get the quality as well, but that's not necessarily, or you can do it fast, but then you won't, it will cost you and you know, the quality may not be as good. So really thinking about that, how you can, how you can measure those things. Because if we measure by time to hire, do we then hire the right people?
Speaker 0 00:19:04 If we only measure by cost of hire, do we then spend the resources the right way? And if we measure quality of higher, then how do we actually measure that? Is it just by whether or not they stay in the company or should we also look at their performance, but then, then we can't do that metric the first six months. Right. Or the first year we have to say, do they stay the first year? And then we have to see do they actually perform after that first year? So I, I, I gotta say, I mean, there are plenty of things we can measure on, but I think we have to, especially, you know, Vivino is a tech company we're innovative, we're at the front of something. We can't do things in recruitment like we did in the nineties, then it's not con consistent with the values of the company. Right.
Speaker 1 00:19:52 Yeah. I love that. And I think that it brings TA into the, you know, front and center. It, it makes TA a business priority. And I think that's fantastic. And tying it back in with the kind, the company goals and how are you moving towards them and having that real sort of the, the, the, as you were saying, the, the view of that triangle gives it a reality that I think sometimes, especially in startup world, like we, you often can't have it all <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:20:26 So exactly.
Speaker 1 00:20:27 We need to be able to say to the business, yes, absolutely. We can achieve it, but <laugh>, yeah, here, here's what we're not going to be able to do or here, you know, I think that's a fantastic way to see it. And yeah. You know, we, we do look at your sort of standard metrics, but what else is there? And
Speaker 0 00:20:45 I think also like, if you think about it that way, um, what if you deliver on all those three metrics, but the candidate experience is awful.
Speaker 1 00:20:55 Mm
Speaker 0 00:20:56 Mm-hmm <affirmative> then it doesn't make sense. You can have all the best internal metrics. Yeah. But if externally, that doesn't translate, you're gonna have a problem in my head or in my mind.
Speaker 1 00:21:08 Yeah. Definitely. And as you said, you know, those, if it's a poor candidate experience that that could impact the business elsewhere
Speaker 0 00:21:15 Exactly
Speaker 1 00:21:15 Become a customer, you know, it could reflect poorly on your brand. So
Speaker 0 00:21:20 Exactly.
Speaker 1 00:21:21 Yeah. Brilliant. And, um, this sort of ties in with something I saw you mention on, on LinkedIn, and that was about the candidate value proposition, CVP of Beno. Um, we know, obviously we are operating in a candidate driven marketplace. I'm very concerned that, you know, with the current market, as it is, people are gonna rest on their laurels and think that that'll change. But I actually think candidates will be more hesitant to move jobs. Um, I dunno what you think about that, but <laugh>,
Speaker 0 00:21:52 I
Speaker 1 00:21:52 Think that we need to, like, we need to remember that it will continue to be candidate driven. Um, so when, when you are speaking about your, your CVP, um, why, what is it, why is this concept, um, and that more human centered recruiting really important to you and, and your team.
Speaker 0 00:22:12 Yeah. And I, and I think just tying back to what you said, I, I definitely believe it's going to continue to be a candidate driven market simply because there is a lack of skills. Um, and I I'll come a little bit back to what I, what I mean by that. And the other thing is, it doesn't matter. I've never been in a company where I've been in a company, that's it, it always goes up and down and we had the financial crisis. And in the nineties, when I came out, it was like 9.6% unemployment rate where in dead markets, like 3% now. So there is so things that's happened and it's always going to go up and down, which means for a company, it becomes even more essential to hire the right people that perform in the company and for the candidates, it becomes even more important to finding that right place for them.
Speaker 0 00:22:58 Yeah. Um, to make sure that they have some kind of job security or that they have to challenges that they want, or should they stay where they are because they know what they have, but they don't know what they're gonna get. And what if that doesn't work out, can they then get a new job? So I think exactly what you're saying from a company side, we need to make absolutely sure that when we hire, we do it. Right. And from a candidate side, we need to be absolutely sure that what we choose is the right place. Yeah. So I, I believe it's definitely going to continue to be candidate driven. And when it comes to, to CBP, I, I was looking it up the other day cuz I was thinking like, how long have I actually been, been talking about this? Like when was the first time I started talking about it and I found the presentation I did in 2015.
Speaker 0 00:23:42 Wow. So seven years ago, um, where I actually started talking about CVP and that obviously has matured over time. Like what I, what I think about it when I, when I talk about CVP, so CVP is candidate value proposition, but it's really about, um, to be a little bit provocative. I think that the EVP is dead. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I, I proclaim the EVP is dead because the EVP is about who are you as a company? Why should you choose us? This is why we're good. It's all like us, us, us, us, us. Yeah. But if it's a candidate driven market, you have to understand the candidate. You have to understand like, what are you looking for? Can we accommodate to that? How can we accommodate to that? Yeah. So that it becomes the right match. But it's about understanding and personalizing that experience towards the candidate, which is also what you're see in like consumer meta trends.
Speaker 0 00:24:37 If you look at the consumer meta trends for the next couple years, the indications are that it's really going to be much more personalized in the shopping experience. And you have to have some kind of consistency across all channels because otherwise you become unauthentic. So it it's really understanding that the CVP for me as a concept is understanding one thing where one brand, it doesn't matter if it's the product. It doesn't matter if it's the commercial side of it. Or if it's the corporate or the candidate, it's one brand, what you experience one place is also going to affect what you experience other places. Yeah. It's about turning from an inside out perspective to an outside in and by that, I mean the EVP is dead and you have to think about the can candidate value proposition and every process that you have. Like we're looking at Viv, we're looking at our, our candidate process and we're looking at every step of it and we're saying, okay, does this create value for the candidate?
Speaker 0 00:25:37 If it doesn't create value for the candidate, it shouldn't be part of our process. So we have to, and that's really difficult and we're definitely not there yet, but that's the aim of what we're trying to do. And the third thing is when I say there's a lack of skills in the market, it's because I believe that skills is your training. That is what, you're, what you can do. That what you learned in school, what you learned on the job, these different things that your skills, but talent, that is the person that is who you are. That is everything you bring to the table. That is what motivates you and what you are looking for in a job. So when we say there's a war for talent, I don't believe that there's a war for skills. We're all looking for the same skills, but talent is that individual. And if you wanna reach the talent, then you have to, you have to talk about your company and present your company consistently across all channels in an authentic way that attracts the candidate because that candidate can see themselves in that journey. You're
Speaker 1 00:26:43 So right. When, when you said about looking instead of sort of going inward, outward, looking outward inward and the employer value proposition being dead, like it's, it, it, now that you've said it, it's like, of course
Speaker 1 00:27:00 That's quite concept for people or, you know, some business leaders to come to terms with as well. And even when you said about the, the fact that you are looking at how each step of the interview process adds value for the candidate, like how you getting buy in for that, you especially, you know, your, your not saying that other, um, people are, but you are incredibly people driven. You're incredibly driven by the talent. Whereas some other business leaders in different functions potentially could be hard to convince that it should be like a candidate value add across the interview process. Like how, how are you sort of positioning it and, and able to get that buy in?
Speaker 0 00:27:51 I, I think it, I mean, it really depends on the company also, um, because this is not the first time, you know, I've been in different companies. I remember, um, the first time I tried to do this, um, where the, the director had hired me, he was like, we didn't know what we wanted, but we just need, we just knew we had to do something different. Um, and that's kind of like why, why they hired me. Um, and of course I had to convince them on the way. And I think that that's where they were in my business background comes in because I'm used to making a business case. And it, I really, I usually always say that, you know, show me the money because people understand data and they understand money. So depending on who you're talking with, you have to dig into understanding what is, what is driving them?
Speaker 0 00:28:36 Is it the money part? Are they commercially thinking? Are they people thinking or are they a product thinking like all these different things and then tap into that and then convert what we're trying to do in their language. Yeah. And I think one of the most difficult things is that this is very much person to person. Like you really have to almost convince every single person, but it starts at the top. And I've been incredibly blessed in this company because from the beginning I had the 100% unwavering support from Tyson. He, and when <inaudible> came in, uh, we got a new CEO last year in August. And when he came in, he's, he's very interested in HR, which is awesome. It can be, it can be, you know, a difficult thing sometimes because he, he will have an opinion about everything, but he is, but he's also awesome in the, in the fact that he really believes in it. Yeah. Um, which means that you do have the backup and you do have the support of the team. And when you do have that, it's a little bit more easy to go into the, to the, the, uh, company and to really get people on board. And I think when you do that, they're gonna be fans. They're gonna be ambassadors and they're gonna be people who absolutely hate it and hate the process and hate you. Maybe not me as a person, but like, hate what I stand for, because I'm just, just slow down Heidi.
Speaker 1 00:30:01 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:30:02 Um, and I, but I, what I usually say is like, give me a year, and then in a year, I promise you they're gonna be on board because I know that this will bring value on one point or another. Yeah. So I think there's a, when you ask about the buy-in, there's something I've definitely learned. You cannot do a change unless the exec team is behind it. So I've, I don't even wanna go there anymore. <laugh> um, and then the second thing is really to understand the business and talk their language and show the value. Yeah. So use the ambassadors to drive that. So the people who really wanna are fans about what you do, then help them even more get that message through and then use those as ambassadors to drive that change
Speaker 1 00:30:46 Throughout your time, just shifting, shifting the focus slightly. But throughout your time in sort of, uh, the, whether it's is previously before your sort of HR related roles, or, or now, are there any big TA people related learnings that, that you've had, like, whether it is at veno or elsewhere? Um, I'd love to hear them.
Speaker 0 00:31:08 Yeah. I mean, it, it definitely ties into, um, what I've been talking about today. I was trying not to say it, um, because I was, I didn't wanna be repeating myself, but the one thing that I really, um, I often say is if I don't help you make money or save money, I shouldn't be there. Yeah. Cause by the end of the day, we're there to, for, to drive a business. Yeah. And if I'm not part of that in one way of the other, with that commercial thinking and can show the value of the function and what we bring to the table, then I really shouldn't be there. And I com I'm completely confident about that. Yeah. So, so that is, that is, I've actually said that to a director once. And he was like, cause he was like, HR is just like people who cost us money. And I just looked straight at him and I was like, if I don't help you save money or make money, you should just fire me.
Speaker 1 00:32:02 I love that. And
Speaker 0 00:32:03 <laugh> so that, that's like, yeah, that's my thing. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:32:08 Love that. And, and as you said, you know, there is this sort of wrong perception of it's just a people related function that spends money actually. No, it's critical. And being able to confidently say, I am here to make help you make money or save money, reducing like wrong perception. Right. Um, and get you that seat at the table <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:32:33 Yeah. That you
Speaker 1 00:32:34 Rightly should, should be having so amazing. And, and on the flip side of that, I suppose, um, is there any advice that you've seen bandied around that you'd love to dispel warn people off, any just sort of advice that you're like, no, don't listen to don't fall down that
Speaker 0 00:32:55 Pitholes it's so like that, but one thing that, that I really think is that in our function, we tend to be very operational. And I think we very, especially if we're busy and we have a lot of bricks to fill and we are maybe in an immature company that doesn't understand the strategic value of, uh, talented position. I think one thing is really the, the, um, understanding that TA is a business driver for the company and it's a key component to making money. Yeah. And I think if we, if we keep on being just operational and we don't do that step up to the tactical and strategic thinking, then we're never gonna be a true part of the business. We just gonna be order takers with no real influence. So I think the pitfall that you should avoid is to have your nose so much or, uh, and then you should say the nose of the track, but <laugh>, I know that's not the expression in English. So I'm trying to think, um, like you were so single minded, I was closing ex tunnel vision. Like, this is what I need to do. I need to close the rec, close the rec, close the rack, but then you forget the bigger picture. And if you don't have that holistic bigger picture, that's the pitfall. I think because then you become an operational support function rather than a business driven partner function.
Speaker 1 00:34:19 Brilliant. I, I really like that. And, um, if you could wave a magic wand and fix anything, when it comes to people and talent, what would that be?
Speaker 0 00:34:32 I would love for even the HR community and definitely for the business to think, um, two things, uh, I have two dishes, one thing is TA and recruitment, talent, acquisition, and recruitment is not the same stop talking about talent acquisition in a recruitment space recruitment in my view is part of talent acquisition for sure. But talent acquisition in encompasses so much more than just recruiting. Yeah. So stop making it an equal thing that talent, acquisition and recruitment is the same stop talking about talent acquisition managers when, when you're really a needing as a recruiter. So, you know, let's, let's be honest about that. That's one thing. And the other thing that I would really love is stop thinking that that being a recruiter is just an entry job so that you can get into the real HR. Um, it is for me, um, a completely different skillset and career path. And it's not something that is just an entry job, it's for sure. A specialty, uh, to really do it well, especially when you move from recruiting to sound like physician
Speaker 1 00:35:49 Amazing, say it louder for the people at the back here
Speaker 0 00:35:59 And
Speaker 1 00:36:00 A couple of lighthearted questions to bring us to a close. Is there anything Heidi that you are super passionate about? Just find unapologetic amounts of joy in can be personal or professional of?
Speaker 0 00:36:13 I absolutely love to dance. Like I've, I've done salsa and I've done all kinds. I have, I'm not like a professional dancer by far, but I love to dance. And one of the reasons why I do that is because I, I was watching all bingeing on Grey's anatomy and, um, they have this thing that they say danced out and it's like, if they there's been a stressful day or they're just happy, they put on some music and they just crazy dance all around the room and just get everything out there. And I tend to do that once in a while and I'll do it with my kids and I'll might even be doing it in the office so much that when it was my 50th birthday recently, when I stepped into the office, they started playing 50 set <laugh> every birthday <laugh>. So I was dancing in to the music. Um, so yeah, we do it when we celebrate and, and I think it may have, um, off a little bit at work, but that's my thing.
Speaker 1 00:37:13 I love that. And it's also really like, it's good to kind of just, you know, get rid of a bit of energy. Like whether that energy, good energy, bad energy, like it's nice to move movement is so important to yeah. Mental health, especially. So
Speaker 0 00:37:30 Exactly
Speaker 1 00:37:31 That. And, um, finally, is there a value, a thought or a phrase that you really like to live by?
Speaker 0 00:37:40 Yeah, there really is. Um, there are two, but one, one is more important for me. Um, and this is something when I, when I mentor younger people, people who are early professionals and early careers, especially, or people who wanna sidetrack or do do a different career change. And that saying is really, um, I don't care where to start because I know where I'm going and I know where I'm going to be ending up. So I have started my career over from scratch, coming from being, you know, product manager globally responsible, yada yada, yada, to being a secretary with HR, um, being a coordinator with HR, starting at an entry job again. And I don't, I've done receptionist jobs and I've done all kinds of jobs and I don't care cuz I know my path is up there. Yeah. So as long as you are, you know, committed and driven and know where you want, then I'm absolutely certain you're gonna get there. And then I dunno if you know, PSRO, uh, which is uh, a children's character from Esri. Um, and uh, she says she has this saying where she's like, uh, oh, I haven't tried that before, but I'm sure it can do it. So that's also kinda my thing.
Speaker 1 00:38:58 I love that <laugh> I absolutely love that. Well, Heidi, I've had such a pleasure chatting with you today. It's been so enjoyable and um, loved hearing your learnings, your experience, your journey, more about Lavena as well as a fan girl hair. I, uh, <laugh>, it's a, has been a real highlight in the so, so chatting, so.
