Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:02 Well, we are a fast growing company. We want to grow as fast as possible and bring as much value to our founders. Um, as fast as possible, the two components of a success for hiring, uh, such a large amount of people in such a short period of time. And it's one of them is obviously pace. You don't want to prolong the process, um, unnecessarily, and also you, you want to hire the best people. So, so the second thing is the relationship with hiring managers without good and open communication. There's not much you can do.
Speaker 1 00:00:40 Hello. My name's Luke Eaton, and this is the seed scaling so far podcast. Uh, in this episode, uh, we speak to the head of talent at pack help, uh, pack, help design custom packaging solutions to create more sustainable choices for eCommerce. Uh, we're getting some really interesting topics around remote working and distributed working, um, and also some internal tools on how to build really interesting internal tools, uh, as you grow. And as you, if you're interested in the internal side of the, of the scaling portion of your business, this one's definitely worth a listen. So Alicia really, really pleased to be chatting with you today. Um, thank you so much for joining us on the, and so far podcast really appreciate it. Um, we get stuck into help and the you guys to a bit you first, so you tell a bit just to
Speaker 0 00:01:31 Sure. Uh, so my entire career has, uh, been connected to recruiting, which wasn't something that I planned for myself. I wasn't really thinking about it. Uh, I graduated English, um, and then I started working as a researcher, uh, for one of the corporations here in PO and I basically moved up the ladder and now I'm at pack for almost three years. And I think that my career has really, uh, boosted, uh, was, has really been boosted, um, through these past three years. Um, I was the 80th employee, uh, here, and when I started working, uh, at P health, my leader Kaha, she left for her maternity leave. So I, for the time I, I was actually the only person that was, um, responsible for the HR PAC help. Um, so this was a huge challenge, obviously for a new someone who just joined, uh, but it gave me a helicopter view on, on what's happening in the company. And, and you know, this, this is amazing and it helps me a lot right now in my current work. Um, but yeah, recruitment and, and talent acquisition from the start.
Speaker 1 00:02:57 Okay, fantastic. It, it must, it's an interesting confluence of events, isn't it. If the, you had to sort of act up into that role, um, it must be really interesting in the context of help growth. So looking forward to getting stuck into that. Um, so you've been there three years. You mentioned pack help was, um, was founded in 2015, I believe. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:03:21 So
Speaker 1 00:03:22 In that time, aside from a global pandemic, which I'm sure must have been a challenge for, for all of you, um, you've been listed as Deloitte technology fast 50 for 2020, and you've just raised your series B 45 and a half million. That's a lot to, that's a lot of change <laugh>. So could you tell us a little bit about, you know, that as it happened, what the journey's been like up to that point?
Speaker 0 00:03:47 Well, um, it wasn't all rainbows in unicorns, I must say. Um, well the pandemics hit us hard, uh, just as everybody else. Um, it was a surprise and also, um, since we are, uh, VC founded, um, we had to answer to the needs of our investors, obviously. Um, so when the pandemics hit, uh, we needed to reduce our costs, uh, for about 25%. Um, so this means obviously layoffs and, and salary reductions for, for the employees that left, um, the, the left, um, that were left in the company. Um, so, um, you know, two years ago, when, when we didn't really know what was happening with the COVID and how it will IDU influence our, um, our market, um, it was generally very difficult for us. Um, fortunately, um, COVID meant a huge boost for e-commerce and after three months, uh, we saw that the, the market is going up and that we're basically selling as we, we were hitting all the targets and even, you know, uh, selling more than we were expected.
Speaker 0 00:05:13 So after three months, we've managed to hire back almost everyone that we laid off, um, uh, previously and then raised people's salaries and then, uh, paid them bonuses for, for, to cover their losses for the past three months. Um, so, um, I would say that these accomplishment that you mentioned, uh, the Deloitte's, uh, ranking and also raising fund B, uh, raising, um, yeah, series B. Um, this is what makes the, the hard part, um, paid off, um, because we, everyone at pack hope takes a huge pride in these accomplishments and, uh, we are very involved in what is happening with the company. Um, so I'd say, yeah, this was, this was all worth it. Uh, it was our common success. It was our, all, all of us hard work and
Speaker 1 00:06:13 Great to able, you know, after that significant, you know, obviously global tragedy, but to be able to look back at the other end of that, that term must be pretty cathartic, pretty positive thing. And we sort of skipped like the actual company itself, the mission and visual, we straight into the success of the company didn't actually ask about the company itself. So can you give us an idea of pack, help the mission, the vision, what do you do?
Speaker 0 00:06:39 Sure. Um, so for those who are not familiar with pack help, we sell boxes. <laugh> however, we're not producing them. Uh, we have a wide net of suppliers, uh, all around the world. Um, and the packaging area itself is rather an old school one. So this is where we found our niche. We're empowering brands, modern brands, uh, to be better at packaging. And also we're making it easier for them to, um, to transfer into sustainability areas, uh, because we brought the old school packaging world, uh, into a brand new world of eCommerce and digital. So, um, yeah, basically we create apps. We create tools for brands to order personalized packaging in low quantities as well, um, without having, uh, to, to contact, uh, directly the suppliers. So, uh, we basically do all the dirty work for them. Uh, and our mission is, is in general to empower brands to be better at packaging. So that's that.
Speaker 1 00:07:52 OK. So really at the heart of eCommerce and which is pretty much at the heart of global commerce, right. That sounds pretty interesting. Um, and what does that mean from a talent point of view then? So I've, I did a little bit snooping around the LinkedIn, uh, before this, uh, podcast, as you can imagine, um, it'll say you've hired upwards of hundred 30 people last year and your talent team tripled in size. So obviously gearing up for scale. Um, what, what's the I, what what's sort of the, the rationale behind that, like, what's the, what, what's the, the reasons behind that, and what's your approach? Like, how are you planning to, to scale?
Speaker 0 00:08:29 Well, when you, when you put it in this perspective, it sounds really impressive because I've never like done the numbers myself, uh, to be honest, um, well we are a fast growing company, um, and we want to, uh, we want to grow as fast as possible and bring as much value to our founders, um, as fast as possible. So, uh, so this is why we're hiring so many people and how we're doing it is. I, I don't know. I feel like I'm, I'm really good at recruiting. This is something that I'm actually good at. I feel so, um, I think it's, it's, uh, the two components of a success for, uh, for hiring, uh, such a large amount of people in such a short period of time. And it's one of them is obviously pace. Um, you don't want to prolong the process, um, unnecessarily, and also, um, you, you want to hire the best people. So, so the second thing is the, um, relationship with hiring managers, um, without good and open communication. There's not much you can do, I'd say, so this is how we basically done it.
Speaker 1 00:09:46 Okay. I mean, I, I like that sort of good best practices recruitment done. Well, I particularly, uh, feel, you wonder the hiring manager piece, that relationship building is so important. If there's one key piece of implementation that we, that we insist on and seed is that, is that relationship for, for that exact reason? You know, I think a lot of hiring managers see recruitment as a demand whole in their business, right. Um, and they're the customer and the candidate is kind of the product. Um, and obviously the opposite is true. The candidate is the customer, the jobs are products and we're all sales people, right. Including the hiring. And if you don't have that conversation with them, readjust that attitude, you could be in a, we transactional state that isn't very good in a candidate market. So sounds great. That sounds really interesting. And how's it been ized in terms of the teams have, you've got, you've gone from two, like a tight little small and mighty team of two up to six. Um, how is it, is everyone just recruiting their own sort of verticals or is the specializations going on? Like what, what's the plan for the, the recruitment team?
Speaker 0 00:10:51 Well, we, we had different approaches. Um, at the beginning we did specialize a bit. I was doing, uh, the tech and product recruitment mostly. Uh, and then once, uh, more people joined, we started splitting into, um, into different areas. Um, but my team as a team of talent, wasn't only about recruitment, but it was also about growing talent at <inaudible> being sort of a, uh, HR business partner. Uh, so we had that approach where I had six people, uh, responsible for both recruitment and, uh, managing talents. And it didn't really work quite well because the girls, uh, had to be focused extremely on recruitment, obviously, because this is a huge part of our job and also on growing talent. And when you're focused on everything, it means you're not focused on anything. Um, so, so now my team is split into two. I have a team of four people in, um, in recruitment itself and team of three, uh, HR business partners, um, that manage all the guilds, um, at P help because we have six, uh, main departments, which are called guilds in our dictionary. Uh, so yeah, I think now it's, it's working, um, best and most efficiently, uh, that we split them. Uh, but yeah, that's the, that's the team.
Speaker 1 00:12:28 Okay, cool. And, um, in terms of the mission, like the employer branding mission, um, looking at your website and sort of earlier conversations, uh, that mission to acquire rock stars and develop their skills, rock stars is a, uh, you know, a well used term in the old tech space. Um, and I think every customer has a unique and interesting perspective on what that means. Uh, so whenever I hear a term like rockstar, I always, I always get curious, I wanna dig in, you know, what does that mean? So like what, from a pack help, point of view, what's a rockstar, like, what do they look like and how do you go about assessing rockstar? You know, when you're, when you're recruiting?
Speaker 0 00:13:08 Sure. So, uh, for P help, a rockstar is someone, uh, that has the drive to go above and beyond in their job. And someone that aims high in seeks excellence in what they do, and also someone who takes ownership. Uh, and then if they fail, they learn from it. Uh, I'd say, this is, this is what we call a rockstar, someone that is not afraid to try new things and someone that is, um, also flexible and, and adjustable, uh, to our ever-changing surroundings. Um, how do I assess the right person? Uh, that's a hard question to be honest. Um, uh, once you've been in the company for a long time, uh, and for <inaudible> three years is a pretty long time, um, because we're still a young company. Um, so I do rely very much on my gut to be honest, uh, but for my team, for, for, for my team members, it's not, uh, it's not something, you know, uh, to, to, um, to go on.
Speaker 0 00:14:16 Um, but I'd say that the most important thing is the understanding of the role itself that you're, that you're hiring. Um, and it's for both sides, it's, it's for both recruiter and the hiring manager for them to, to basically be able to diagnose who they need precisely in their team. And, uh, once you know exactly who you're looking for, and you're able to ask them, um, certain questions regarding the role. And then we, as HR are able to ask, uh, questions related to their engagement and to their, uh, to their attitude. Um, I'd say you're destined for success. Uh <laugh> but you know what they say, hiring is always a guessing. So we're trying, we're trying very hard not to, not to, uh, well, to get as close to, to, um, to not guessing, but obviously you never know until you hire.
Speaker 1 00:15:18 Yeah, I think, um, it, attitude is getting more and more important. Um, where particularly in tech recruiting, I think a lot of product centric, software companies, they're looking for people with entrepreneurial attitudes and a lot of the behaviors that you've, that you've just listed there, you know, that flexibility, the ability to take ownership allows organizations to remain innovative as they grow. When you have these little teams of developers who treat their team like a little startup inside of a bigger company, and that's not a tick list of do they know JavaScript, do they know type script, so blah, blah, blah. That's all about attitude. And all of the pressure comes on those talent people to go, well, how do you assess for that at scale? It's a bit more difficult. So I feel you paid, uh, but it's pretty cool, right? I think it makes the role that the job of recruitment a lot more interesting in our, in our, for sure,
Speaker 1 00:16:07 Super, um, in terms of your presence then, so you've, you, you kinda split across Europe, Poland, Spain, France, the Netherlands. Um, I always, we always ask to ask about remote working because that's obviously the, the absolute, um, is what was on everyone's lips for the past few years. So you've adopted a remote friendly workplace, um, and they have the flexibility to, you know, control where they work, how they work. A lot of businesses have been asking the question, you know, do we go fuller, remote? Do we go higher? Do we go back to the office as, as, as we used to, I'm sure there's a lot of re rationale behind each individual choice, but I'm interested in pat help's choice. You know, what you, you you've always been a distributed company. So what, what were the foundations of success for that? Are you gonna a company remote first through a pandemic? What, what keeps that company together?
Speaker 0 00:16:57 Well, uh, this is something that we definitely have to adjust for. Um, when I joined PAC was a tiny company, um, brother, a small one, and, uh, what mattered for us as employees the most, uh, were the relations that we had with each other and, you know, working desk by desk, uh, having, uh, coffee together and meals together, we were very, very tight let's say. And then when the, when the COVID, um, situation hit, uh, we went fully remote and then after a few weeks, um, well we, we basically noticed that, uh, we've lost that something, um, in our daily work, um, we started having, uh, troubles communicating and it was just, you know, hard, uh, to, to adjust that quickly, um, to the surroundings. And, um, we tried to go about this issue in different ways. Um, we, we started having company wide meetings to improve the spirits of, of people who were suddenly forced to, to stay at home.
Speaker 0 00:18:13 Um, we tried to, um, we tried to do workshops together. We tried to have a virtual coffee, but nothing really worked, uh, for us. So then we started thinking about the hybrid mode and I think that, um, this is a sweet spot that we have right now. Um, this is when we're, we've also opened our amazing modern office. Um, so this, this actually, uh, came out pretty well because we didn't want to force people to come to the office. We wanted to lure them in. Um, so we, um, we managed to, um, to put all the goodies that you can imagine into our amazing space, like barista, uh, on Tuesdays and massages and on Wednesdays and then branches lunches and whatever you name it. Uh, it was there. Um, so, so, uh, so yeah, so I think this is, um, this is something that is working well for us right now. Uh, the hybrid mode, we're also, um, we're also including all of our, uh, remote fully remote employees in every possible gatherings that we have, all the integrations, all the, all the fund that we're having here in Poland. We're, we're also, um, we're also paying for their flights and paying for their accommodations here. Um, so I'd say, yeah, that, that was a huge success, uh, because we took care of people and, and that was, that was something that we decided to go on and it was a good choice.
Speaker 1 00:19:54 That's cool. I do, I do miss the old, um, massages and that one of my old companies had all of that good stuff. And I, I do miss that about the office. There's an interesting,
Speaker 0 00:20:03 And having one after this meeting, so
Speaker 1 00:20:05 <laugh> oh, nice. I could, I, I've got a lot of back problem right now. I could do a good old, a good old spot massage myself. Uh, I think I might treat myself one as well. Um, what you, you picked up on something interesting there, which was in the middle of a band. So, which was the, you can't force people to go back to the office. Some companies disagree <laugh> and I, I totally agree with you. My view has always been where, when organizations ask myself in the seeds context or just general conversation, um, you know, should we be remote? Should we be office, but should we be hybrid? My answer is always, it's not your choice anymore. You're missing the point it's you don't get to say, well, I have decided, you know, based on a capital expenditure that we made before, COVID have an office that we're gonna make everyone go into the office.
Speaker 1 00:20:51 I think employees have a different relationship with their working environment and they're more empowered to choose for themselves. And we're a very competitive market. So it's easier for someone who's built a habit of working remotely to say, I'm gonna move to a different job that's remote than it is to get used to the new way of working in the same job. Yeah. So I think that attitude of well let's provide a service for our employees to operate in the most effective way for themselves that work life balance, get the kids up from school, collaborate with who wanna collaborate, whatever I think's a really good basic attitude to have across it, a changing business. Um, that's not a question I just, something to pick up on I thought was really interesting. Um, cool. And the future, we spoke a little bit about past what, where year as of talent, you know, what your main goals, what are the milestones towards those goals and, and the strategies for the next year?
Speaker 0 00:21:48 Yeah, I would, I would say that it's not only for the talent team, but it's for the entire company 20, 22 is, uh, about the process excellence and about recalibrating basically. Um, it's about taking a step back and assessing, uh, whether our processes basically make sense. Um, so I would say it's, it's, it's it's time to bring our game to the next level to improve and, and pull quality over pace.
Speaker 1 00:22:21 Okay. Optimizing for, for scale and, and quality. Yeah. Um, exactly all the on rec op stuff, all the fun data stuff to get stuck into, uh, which is my bad, I have to say. Cool. Um, you, you launched, um, on the optimization side, you, you launched an app internally to gather feedback a peer-to-peer internal app. Um, I'm interested to know what, what the, the rationale was behind that, why you chose an internal app over a third party, like a Pecon, you know, Workday type solution, other than the fact that it's Workday of course. Um, but I'm just interested to know, like the thought process behind that. And, and what's the impact been like, what's the, what are the outcomes?
Speaker 0 00:23:01 Well, this is something that I take huge pride in, to be honest, this is one of my biggest accomplishments. OK. Um, it, it, the app is sort of my baby, you know, that I created here. Uh, so, so I'm, I'm gonna smile a lot right now. Um, but to be honest, um, it came out of the need that we had, uh, dictated by our culture, um, because P hub culture was always based on, um, open feedback and also from your peers, um, open communication, open feedback. So, um, we've tried a lot of external tools. Uh, we tried, um, features in our, uh, in our HRS, we tried different apps available on the market, not seem to suit our needs. And we decided that, well, let's do it. Let's just create something. And, um, and yeah, we basically did, uh <laugh> as, as easy as it sounds.
Speaker 0 00:24:09 Uh, but you know, back in the day when it was, uh, less than a hundred of employees at Phelp, it was easier to gather feedback manually. And this is what we did. Uh, we gathered peer to peer feedback on slack. Uh, so, Hey, how do you, how do you like working with this person sort of thing? Um, but it became impossible when we hit one 50, it was undoable mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, um, at that time, our tech team, uh, was craving for a hackathon, uh, because this is something that, you know, tech, people love just figuring out different solutions for something that they're not working on every day. So we decided to kill the two birds with one stone. Basically we organized the hackathon and, uh, yeah, I, I basically went to our VP of, uh, engineering, Matt, uh, who is an amazing, uh, manager by the way.
Speaker 0 00:25:11 And he's very open to HR suggestions, which is, which is super, super cool. Um, so, so we got together and we got the ball rolling. Basically, we organized a hackathon. So I had to do, uh, specification and mock apps for the app, which wasn't easy for me because I've never done it before. Uh, but I had a lot of support from, uh, from the guys that were responsible for the hackathon biotech and marching, uh, and also from our PMs, uh, they were really helpful at that time. Um, so I wanted to do it properly, you know? Um, and yeah, we, we, um, we, we've never created an, an app like this before. Um, so yeah, so, so that's what we did. And, uh, now it's, it's incorporated into our everyday work and, um, I can see the improvement of the quality of feedback, um, and that people are giving to each other.
Speaker 0 00:26:13 It's more constructive, it's more precise. And also 90% of feedbacks that we've gathered, uh, on this, uh, performance evaluation session, uh, was not anonymous, which is also a huge success for us because people started, you know, to give their feedbacks, uh, much more openly than they used to. Um, and, uh, we're still planning, uh, to, to, you know, improve the app. And we're planning for second and third iterations, uh, because we want to add features that will allow, uh, the team leaders to manage their teams easily. So it's not gonna be the feedback app anymore. Probably it's gonna be a manager's app. Um, we're gonna add skill grids and O or its that we're working on, uh, every day and hiring hiring requests as well, uh, all in one place, uh, for the managers to manage their team.
Speaker 1 00:27:12 So that's really cool. Um, what I like about that is there always tends to be like a disconnect between like HR systems and recruitment systems, um, are, you know, looking for demand requests, especially in a scaling business. And I think one of the first things that we tend to do with scaling businesses in seed is we have to rationalize demand. So, uh, we want 300 senior engineers pleased in a year. And then we have to say, well, in six months time, how many of your current engineers are going to be senior? And then we'll backfill those roles. Um, and there's no se sensible way of doing that because there's the reporting in the HR systems, doesn't that, and it doesn't in the TA. So the fact that you have one system that pulls all that together is gonna make it a lot easier for you to ration on year on year. So that sounds very cool. So you are a product owner now within the business, as well as the, of talent,
Speaker 0 00:28:04 Apparently. Yeah. It's a difficult job. I must tell you extremely stressful to release the, and as I said, it's, it's sort of my baby, so I sort take it really personally when there's something wrong or there's a bug or something. So yeah, it's, it's really stressful, but, uh, but it's very rewarding.
Speaker 1 00:28:27 Yeah. I've, I've never met a product or one that isn't stressed, so I think you're probably doing it right. <laugh> so is good. Um, and sort of getting, getting kind of towards the end of the, of the chat just now, but I always like to sort of wrap up with a few kinda overall questions about, you know, what you've learned and, um, you know, when it comes to shaping teams, you've had a very interesting experience, at least over the past three years. Certainly very interesting experience in, uh, a scaling business, um, through massive change. Like, is there, is there any like overall takeaways that you've, that you've learned over that period?
Speaker 0 00:29:02 Wow. Uh, I learned so much in P help, uh, that it's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be difficult for me to make a list of a few <laugh>. Uh, I would say that the biggest, uh, the biggest learn was that startup is a place where you can, uh, grow both personally and professionally much faster than you can do in different companies. Um, so yeah, I would say that it's, it's, the pace is, is, uh, much faster than anywhere else. So if you give, uh, people ownership and also about their personal growth and, and their growth, um, CareerWise, I'd say they, they can surprise you. That's that's, that's the thing about startups.
Speaker 1 00:29:51 I like that optimistic about people, which is, is thing. And what about opposite side? Like, is there any, you know, in that startup scale up space, there's a lot of myth and a lot of, you know, in, in terms of how, how it should be done, whether you do one way or another and so on, like, is there any sort of things that you would avoid, any pitfalls or major blockers that you think a younger, if you were to sort of give advice to you three years ago? Like what major blockers would you make yourself aware of?
Speaker 0 00:30:26 Well, I would say that open communication is key and transparency as well, uh, for the employees. Um, because without it, you really cannot do your HR work properly. Um, and it also allows you to, to build a great team, um, this open communication and transparency, because it's your relation is also based on trust and based on, um, all the good things that can come out of, uh, such cooperation mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, um, it's also important for you as being an employee and, and to have that open communication, uh, with your leader. Um, so I'd say this is the key, um, constant feedback. Also, I'm always open to feedback and I, I think my, my girls and my team are also, uh, open to feedback. And if you have someone to bounce your ideas off, uh, I have that with my leader Kaha. She's amazing. She's my mentor in the HR, uh, spectrum. Um, so yeah, if you have that relationship where you can bounce your ideas off, uh, of each other and then get always count on open feedback and open communication, um, I think, I think that's a sweet spot and this is, this is how I'm building my team as well. Um, based on, based on that, uh, values.
Speaker 1 00:31:56 OK. That's I really like that. And, um, and what about, so just to kind of bring it to a close, like, what about you? Like what, what are you absolutely crazy passionate about? Doesn't have to be work related, could be anything, could be skydiving, so it doesn't matter. <laugh> what, what's your, what's your major passion?
Speaker 0 00:32:15 Well, I'm not, uh, an adrenaline freak. Uh, I, I, I I'm that kind of person that is always interested in everything and I, I do have a lot of knowledge about different random things. Uh, so that that's something that people at pack up would say that if, if I jump into the conversation, I always have something to say. Um, so right now, since I have a four year old at home, uh, my time is really limited. Uh, so I sometimes do crosswords and read science articles. Uh, and obviously I feel amazing about doing nothing and, and just chilling in front of Netflix. Um, but yeah, I, I, I love singing as well. Uh, it helps me to calm down and vent after a long day of work. So yeah, so this, these are the things that I'm, I'm passionate about, but yeah, not much time these days.
Speaker 1 00:33:14 I like the idea of being, being able to just sing in the office, you know, to chill out. Everyone has their own like bent, maybe just singing it out in the office to, to relieve stress out. Their own meeting sounds like fun.
Speaker 0 00:33:24 That's what
Speaker 1 00:33:27 I've got 13, 13 month old at home. So I understand that the pie of your life, like the me time gets smaller and smaller. So it's just that small. Uh, so I feel you there. And, uh, and finally, like, is there a, like a thought or a phrase or a credal that you, you live by that's that's helped you personally and at work?
Speaker 0 00:33:47 Yeah, I do believe in karma very much. So I would say what goes wrong, comes around. Um, yeah, that's, that's my motto. I, I, I'm a strong karma believer, so if I do good, I know that good will come back to me.
Speaker 1 00:34:03 Okay. Well, you've been a wonderful podcast guest, so maybe it'll come around and you'll, you'll be a wonderful podcast host in the future. Maybe that's a comic retribution for, for chatting to us today. So thank you. So for your time, really appreciate.
