Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 One of the best places I learned how to do this actually, is when I worked in construction. So I spent maybe five, six years in construction and I was really embedded in the business that it's an amazing industry to work in for those that haven't done it. But it's so great to teach you about resource planning and demand because you, you can't build a skyscraper in Central London unless you've got a plan. But it's so important to them to understand how does everything run? Can, can, certain things run in parallel? What skills do you need in order to build the building at that certain phase and time? What teams do you need to bring external? Do you need permanent teams or do you need subcontracted teams, or do you need temporary teams? And that taught me in, been ingrained in that, um, really taught me a lot about understanding the detail of what we're trying to build.
Speaker 0 00:00:46 Uh, and I think that's the most important thing, but it's so important for them to understand how does everything run? Can, can certain things run in parallel? What skills do you need in order to build the building at that certain phase and time? What teams do you need to bring external? Do you need permanent teams or do you need subcontracted teams or do you need temporary teams? And that taught me, and being ingrained in that, um, really taught me a lot about understanding the detail of what we're trying to build. Uh, and I think that's the most important thing, is your expertise as a recruiter is to say, Okay, these things are gonna be challenging. This is the sort of, uh, ability that we have to deliver within these timeframes. But also studying with the business, understanding and asking what you think may be a stupid question, but actually isn't, is okay, so why are we building this team now? What, what's that gonna serve? And how does that relate to the what's being built in tech? Don't separate your business partners. Don't have this big line of demarcation between the two teams, especially in this process. Cause you need them.
Speaker 1 00:01:43 Welcome to Charlotte, uh, founder and CEO of Think Talent for our latest episode of Scaling so far. Charlotte, thanks very much for joining us on the podcast today. Um, as a close friend of Seed, super excited to be chatting with you, uh, and digging into some, uh, some juicy topics. So to get the ball rolling, um, can you just let us know a bit about yourself, um, your journey to where you're today? Um, yeah, just as a, as a nice breaker and to
Speaker 0 00:02:12 Thanks Matt. Excited to be here. I'm slightly disappointed. 2020 other episodes before you invited me, but we'll let, we'll let that slip. So what can I hear you about these? So, uh, my background, I think it's quite a typical sort of recruitment ta background sort of came outta university, uh, forced to go to university. Cause I had those parents that thought, you know, you couldn't succeed in life. Got a degree. Um, so picked a random degree doing English lit came out, sort of fell into recruitment. I got a job at Hayes, um, so outta uni, um, you know, really great grounding from a training perspective. Learned, learned a lot of that. Did healthcare, global healthcare recruitment with them. Um, then went inhouse and did a year at, uh, in-house, um, nhs then moved to international development and healthcare in house at a more commercial organization. Um, then went into construction, then went into it, then went into FinTech and that sort of brought me here. So really love working in lots of different industries. Um, particularly, um, in the talent space. Really sort of found my niche in the, in the tech and the scale up space. I think it's a really exciting place to, uh, yeah, navigate and a place to live. Um, so, so that's a little bit about me. Um, I live in Amsterdam with two, uh, yeah. And I'm currently just, uh, enjoying the sunshine.
Speaker 1 00:03:37 Fabulous. Thank you very much. So fair to say, a ton of experience in a, a kinda a broad set of organizations and kind of finding your home, I think much like I did in the, uh, the tech led, um, businesses. Um, probably a lot to draw from, um, for this question. But what would you say some of your biggest learnings have been along the way? And yeah, feel free to be as, uh, as open as you can on this one. <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:04:02 Yeah, cool. It'd be interested to hear yours as well. Cause is be, is definitely a, So I think one of the things that I learned, and probably I got put management role at a relatively young age, I think cause maybe 24, 23 when had management job. And I reckon I was probably the boss you could possibly imagine. So I was that micromanage. I'll do it because you're not doing it in the way that I want you to do it. Um, and actually it was the best lesson I learned, which one, to hire people. You know, just because people get from A to B in a different manner doesn't mean is any better, worse, usuallys better. Um, I think that for me is really, really important. Uh, and learning to trust people and not to micromanage people. Um, and again, that's something I learned the hard way.
Speaker 0 00:04:48 Cause I think you go in with, you know, all guns blazing thinking, right? I'm, and actually in doing that, you actually make a complete mess it so people don't micromanage. People hire different, you for me mm-hmm. <affirmative> again, it's like one that's big. I think all too often recruiters are very good at, uh, helping other people see that and not so good at doing it themselves. Um, I think when people think of a stereotypical recruiter, a certain type of person come to, um, and actually the best I've worked in as well, we've consciously people that disagree with me on a lot of things or disagree with the group and have a completely different, um, approach or methodology, uh, you know, introvert versus extroverted. Like, I think that can, can create a real richness in the team. And that, you know, goes for any. Um, but I think at the, of all of that, along with the diversity of who you hire is also make sure you can define those intrinsic core values.
Speaker 0 00:05:42 And those things are the same. So like integrity is a massive one for me. Uh, I have a real genuine problem with people that have, uh, issues telling the truth. Um, so for me, that's a massive core, that's a massive core values. So integrity and fairness a big one to me. So again, as you're building, building a team, make sure you're testing those core values. People can come from all different walks of life with all different views and diverse ways of thinking, but if their approach and their their heart is the same, I think you've, you've got a great, uh, set. And then, uh, I think lastly, if you disagree, always speak up. But just find the way to deliver the message in the way the person needs to receive it. I think I, you, again, in my career historically, I didn't say anything and get really up and irritated. Uh, and then I went to the of just saying it in the way that I would say it and then potentially upsetting people, not I starting to learn if you gotta, if you've got a hard message where you've got something you really need to say, and it's important, learn the way in which the person best can it.
Speaker 1 00:06:42 Yeah. No, thank you very much. There are a number of interesting points there, and I think it's true. I definitely was maybe still am, um, the, in the world. Um, it's not true that great recruiters make great managers as a, as a rule. I think the same for any any function, right? For engineering, right? Just you're awesome engineer doesn't mean you're an awesome engineering leader. Um, but often we're, we're quite driven in the profession that we're in. So we either push ourselves, there's a, our managers back then would've said, These people are great at at recruiting, they're gonna be great managers. Let's give them a team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need some help. We need some learning. Um, I, well, my biggest learning is there's loads. Um, but I guess I'm gonna jump on the, the point that you made, which is around that kind of culture feedback.
Speaker 1 00:07:36 Um, and that kind of alignment around a set of values or principles or, or sort of common pillars, um, I think is really, really, really important. Um, in, in any business, in any function, right? Um, you can, as you say, get from A to B in completely different ways. But if you have the same ethics, eco ethos, values base, um, anything is possible, you can vary across everything. But if you're consistent across these themes Yeah, Yeah. Then teams can stuff. Um, when you're not for you and the people in your team, if there's, there's alignment there, then things aren't successful. Right? And being comfortable that won't align or don't align to those values, I think was one of the biggest things that I've learned that these, these things that you hold your team dear by or your business dear by should be an attractor and a detractors to people. Right? And I always assumed it was supposed to, well, everyone must want to join this, this party in this way. And, and that's not true. Um, and it's supposed to be that way, right? But it took me a while to, to adjust to that.
Speaker 0 00:08:44 Yeah, that's so true. And I think the other thing that I always value is having done this is that they've got your back covered, right? Because I think in one way, like, you know, you can train yourself I think naturally, but my go to instinctive behavior is one route to look at X instead of, instead of, and you great example, Molly, is, you know, when we, the TA function of you, the know the intricacies of a high forming ta function reli so much on that behind the curtain, uh, the operational, the, the, the machinery. And, you know, I worked with a great TA ops and coordination team and because they all to each other, every base was covered and they wouldn't need to like ask permission. It would just get done. And it would just be, Hey, we did this. We noticed a gap. I plugged it here, What do you think? And I just feel like, Oh, I hadn't even thought of that. That's amazing. You know, because you have people that think differently. Otherwise, if you, you know, hire a Charlottes, it would be a very noisy, um, it probably a lot of stuff would get delivered, but you know, the mess that would be left in the way, cause it would be very tidy as got it done. And that's what, you know, that's I the beauty of Molly. My at Molly taught me a lot about that actually.
Speaker 1 00:10:02 Yeah. That's a really important message, I think for all leaders to up on, right? That when we're hiring and we are building our teams around us, that being united by a set of values is important, but that's definitely not the same as us all thinking and doing and getting to be in the, in the right way. Right? So using that, um, opportunity to kind move into the, um, your time with Molly, um, scaling a TA function to enable, um, a number of phases of high growth, right? Following, um, different rounds of funding, pretty big topic and one that's relevant, um, as people plan for kind of 20, 23 and beyond. But I'd love to hear from your perspective and, and your of experience, what's your approach to understand that what recruiting demand is from the business? Like we've all been there, it's chaos. Every conversation you have with someone, there's five more roles, three more roles here that all that role stop. There's 15 more over here. Like Yeah. How do you kinda cut through all of that and effectively understand that to build a team to, to deliver essentially?
Speaker 0 00:11:08 That's a really great question. So, and there's definitely one that, and I've, that's one of the first, uh, questions that I ask. I, one piece of advice I would give is don't expect it to a mm-hmm. <affirmative>, especially in environment that you and I work in, and you and I navigate. If you're expecting a hundred percent, it's never, you're gonna the boats on delivering the 90% set, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, think one of the places I learned to do this actually is when I worked construction. So I spent maybe five, six years in construction and I was really embedded in the business that it's an amazing industry to work in for those that haven't done it. But it's so great to teach you about resource planning and demand because you, you can't build a skyscraper in central London unless you've got a, a plan. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:11:54 <laugh>. Um, so nothing happened without a plan, right? And so obviously that take, that's taken to the nth extreme. Um, but it's so important for to understand run, can certain things run in parallel? What do you, in order to build the building at that certain and time, what teams do you need bring external? Do you need permanent teams or do you need subcontracted teams or do you need temporary teams? And that taught me, and being ingrained in that, um, really taught me a lot about understanding the detail of what we're trying to build. Uh, and I think that's the most important thing, um, is your expertise as a recruiter is to say, Okay, these things are gonna be challenging. This is the sort of ability that we have to deliver within these timeframes. But also sitting with the business and un understanding and asking what you think may be a stupid question, but actually isn't.
Speaker 0 00:12:39 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is, ok, so building this team now, what's that gonna serve and how does that relate to the, what's being built in? Cause what often happens in scale up and all, everything independently of other, So the commerces team will go off and build the sales team, the tech team will build this over here. Um, especially when you're running at the pace that you've got and you've got, investors are expecting a huge amount from you. This isn't specific to Molly, by the way. This is just what I've heard from lots of people for sure. But, uh, I think for me it's you, it's asking the right question. So if you build commerce here, what's the pressure gonna be in terms of tech? And if actually that strategy, if the commercial strategy is, it's, how's the tech team gonna support that? Are we running in the right direction and how are we gonna get, how are we gonna put this together?
Speaker 0 00:13:24 And even so far as this is, and this is where I, again, I think in organizations we didn't have this atli we had an amazing relationship with, um, our people function and business partners. But again, don't separate your business partners from U team don't have this big line of demarcation between the two teams, especially in this process. Cause you need them. Um, and for me it would be about sitting down with the, you know, the business partner, the, the business, What's the plan you can impact from that perspective. You've got the knowledge of the business partner in terms of knowing that business really intimately in terms of, okay, if we do this, how are we're building that? Looking at the org design. Hmm. Um, it's never just delivering a list, if that makes sense. So that's, that's the job. Um, because you'll just fall over, you know, we've, you know, you see it time and time again.
Speaker 0 00:14:12 Um, you know, you get delivered a headcount plan for, uh, you know, the year and it's November and half the roles are in q1. Q1. We've been there, we've gone, you know, that's important. Just you talk to me about this. Have you started building it yet? Can I talk to you about how we're set up to deliver for you? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and that's where you can have those tough conversations. Say, Look, I physically do not have capacity to deliver that. If that's what, and that's the right us, then I need xyz. And I think one of the beneficial things about the last two years is that it's really put talent for, you know, talent and recruitment as forefront, um, and really raised the bar in terms of the expectations, um, and the importance of the function. And I think then it comes to that agreement that we then have to live up to that, right? In terms of if you, we are being put on pedestal now is such an important function, which we always were, but you know, we're getting the off there mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we really have to live up, live up to that and really start empower that business partner mentality when it comes to planning.
Speaker 1 00:15:20 No, that makes a ton of sense. And we'll come on sort of building and enabling the team to, to deliver that. But I have a question just for the benefit of the listeners. And I think you and I have probably seen an over obsession around finalizing, um, a headcount plan and or a hiring plan or a workforce plan or, or whatever language the business uses. And I think I picked up an important piece at the beginning, and correct me if I'm paraphrasing incorrectly, but I guess as TA leaders, we have to understand that there's no such thing as a final list. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there needs to be a tolerance for, uh, some movement either way, Right? Things evolve. Um, is that fair to say? I guess just for those folks who perhaps are out there overing around their 20 being a final, final probably.
Speaker 0 00:16:09 Yeah, no, it never will be. And especially in the industry that you and, you know, the up and startup up particularly, um, you're gonna suffer from anxiety <laugh> from a significant of, if you're focusing on hundred percent, you can you a approach to it, right? And, and especially if you, you've got clients that, with you guys, and you've gone through this a couple of times, is, you know, what are your high turnover roles in terms of what you, what do you know we're gonna be hiring regardless of numbers and head count, your sales and your tech, What are those evergreen roles as we put it? And then your ones will probably be changed more than anything else. Strategy changes and my goodness, look, the last of change and we draw ours. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Don't focus on percent. If you get 80% and you can run with it running.
Speaker 1 00:16:58 Yeah. Then that makes a ton of sense. And I think the other super, super important bit is, um, and I've, let's talk about mistakes. I've made this mistake before, right? I've gone to function, got my list, merge the whole list together and say, Cool, here's my big hiring plan. Um, that was a mistake. Um, because the piece that you mentioned, right? Is being able to have conversations with those teams and challenging them, right? Okay, cool. All of your roles are in q1. Does that make sense? Do you know that these are the roles that are, you know, becoming live in Q1 for this team? Don't we need to have built this before we can sell it? You know, should we move your roles back to q2? Uh oh, Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, definitely challenge, definitely look at those interdependencies and, and what the purpose of, of those positions is. Um, don't do what Matt did once upon a time and stitch all the lists together. Do what Charlotte did, and, uh, challenge the business. And sure they know what functions to achieve.
Speaker 0 00:17:57 Well, I, there no, no one's perfect, right? Think especi, when you in, it's not your sole job to do is, you know, responsibility, the executive responsibility for No, no, uh, no question. But sometimes the the, the responsibility in a good way. Uh, and the of having such a wonderfully trusted role, like a HR business partner or a business, you can to questions. And some of it sometimes, you know, I used to use approach of to it. A I'd like to, especially, especially if you, you're understanding the person you're dealing, the person youre dealing with. It's coming from a question perspective instead of saying, Hey, have you thought about? It's like, about so that, and, and it's just, cause I get it, everybody's super excited. You've just, you, you wanna scale, you wanna reach heights and you wanna build the department, possibly can and wanna build company. You possibly can. Yeah. But sometimes, you know, stopping reflect and taking all some days A or support from TA and you can build something that's much more meaningful.
Speaker 1 00:19:09 Awesome. Thank you for that. So now we have a plan. Um, we've locked and loaded it. We know it's probably gonna change a bit. We think we've got it in the right order. A then B, then C. Um, how do you tend to go about sort of forming the right team to, to enable that hiring success? So there are any specific sort of tactics or frameworks, think thought processes that you have in in particular that have worked well for you and perhaps maybe some that haven't, if you're to share <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:19:40 <laugh>. Yeah, sure. Excellent. Segues, by the way, I'm, I'm nothing this, It's a very smooth,
Speaker 1 00:19:43 You're making it very, Yeah. <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:19:46 Um, yes. So let's start with the things that I probably didn't, I didn't do well. Um, this is gonna sound really counterintuitive to start with, but you'll have to wake me out cause I'm doing it in, in the scope of, again, the startup scale up space where things aren't things ambiguous, there's a lot of gray. Um, so my feedback to that is do not hire junior people or even mid-level people straight away. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, it will seem more expensive on your budget from a TA perspective, but hire senior experience people. And I don't mean senior in terms of, Oh, I don't do recruitment anymore. I just do strategy. Or I just, you know, I just sit in the back and they'll think and guide you. Um, I'm talking about hands on recruiters, but really experience, they've, they've been through the mill is such an English phrase, but they've, they've been through it before a couple of times.
Speaker 0 00:20:37 They know the pitfalls, they know behaviors, um, of scale up and startup. Cause it is a different business behavior when you're dealing with, with these, these executives and these sorts of roles. Um, so we didn't make, we haven't made too many. That's probably one I learned very quickly is if, uh, you are hiring junior people who need a lot of support and structure and that's has to the short term when you're first setting out, don't do it. I really would. Um, unless you've got someone truly exceptional that you think can, it's a hard place, uh, if you're sort of entering the business. So that's probably one that I definitely so invest in that. Another I was, I was hear, and again, I learned this a hard way cause I used to be the biggest, uh, no, I don't wanna use a head hunter. No, we don't need, um, don't wanna use them.
Speaker 0 00:21:36 It's waste. You know, it's so expensive. Um, and I've, you've come around like, you know, if I, Molly and the value for picking good partnerships with exec search firms can open up a huge network not just for you but for the business leader that maybe, you know, maybe you've got, uh, an exec member who's first to role and they've got a part of the business that experie and not deeply knowledgeable exec can actually add a tremendous amount of value even beyond just the hiring of that next great person. Um, so again, that's the lesson that I learned in time is they're not the enemy. Some of them are. Um, but if you pick them well, uh, the value they can offer you and the, the partnership, not only you, but again, that, that business league can be so powerful, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's open terms of networks and other as well.
Speaker 0 00:22:32 So I think they're probably the two things. What else? Type think they're probably two, two big things. Like I, yeah, Molly, we've hired, we hadd a lot of experience with recruits can benefit. And I think in the last sort of six months introducing, um, more sort of media and and junior team members. Cause we started to, you know, impress that structure because we had the people that had, you know, been there, done that, knew what could look like and could build the processes and procedures and uh, take it off from there. And then, um, the other one, probably my last one that's probably a to the business as well is process and structure is not a dirty, not 30 words. Um, you can get like, you know, I've worked in, I, trust me, I've worked in businesses in my histor where I've literally been like, I can't work here.
Speaker 0 00:23:18 I can't get anything done. Uh, because there's so much tape and there's, you've signatures sign off for a tool that's, um, that's not what I mean. And I think this is where we have to be really mindful of, you know, teaching businesses and educating businesses when it comes to ta. Uh, it is a process function, but it doesn't need to, or that's probably the other, the other thing that I've learned is I used to hate those words myself. I'd be like, Oh my God, like, you wanna be free and like, it's so cool to like build you people and just do thing. And it's like, no, actually that's the quick, but it's freedom within the framework to way to put
Speaker 1 00:24:03 It. Makes sense. And I was scribbling some notes down here. Always a learning opportunity, but essentially kind of three key pillars here, right? Like people, partners, and process, um, yeah. Is super important. And we've all seen this when investing in, in building that TA team or TA structure to enable that hiring success. There is a tendency sometimes to, to gear towards the kind of the lower cost solution. Whether that be not using partners, whether that be mid to to junior level recruiters. And I kind of wanted to touch on the, the, the shape of recruiter a bit more. Um, I have personally lots of conversations with people that hiring TA teams for the first time or people that are scaling their TA functions and try and take them on the journey that you've just explained to us in terms of being more senior, not necessarily been there, done there, got this badge. But being able to, to navigate a broad range of, of challenges as a recruiter, which only comes through time and through experience is, um, is a huge success factor, right? Yes. Um, yeah. Is there anything else that you'd add to why the senior recruiter in that founding team, let's call it that from a TA perspective rather than the, the sort of high potential sort of junior to mid-level. Anything else you'd sort of add around that?
Speaker 0 00:25:27 Yeah, I think, and again, this is, I, I don't, I'm conscious I do not to make generalizations here. You can this at every level, but a more seasoned, a more experiential recruiter will typically have much more business focus. Hmm. <affirmative> more comfortable pushing back and challenging. Whereas again, I, everybody with the same brush of Charlotte at 22, Charlotte at 22 just wanted to please the person who was her business lead by hiring everybody the person wanted as quickly as possible. Best of my ability. Um, as opposed to doing the stop think, is this sensible how, you know, how does this relate to the rest of the make of your team and what else is coming down the pipe that we need to be conscious of? I heard from the business that we're, do, you know, so I think that comes with time. Some people are born with it and it, but think majority of people that is behavior's and things at the same time. The ability to say, Okay, I think we need to take a breath. I don't think this is the right way forward. I think we actually need to wait and these are the reasons as opposed to saying job in higher done boom next, which is not a trait. Cause you definitely need that once you up running. But, um, I think for me that's the key piece is that business partner relationship
Speaker 1 00:26:47 A and I guess particularly as, and I'm not generalizing here as well <laugh> just for record, but the hiring community are great in their respective functions, but it may well be the first time they've had hiring responsibility, right? Yeah. They may well be hungry to, to transact and get the people in, right. So No, I completely agree. Kinda a more experience or pair of hands can help sort of guide them through some of those trials and tribulations and, and help them avoid some of the uh, common pitfalls, which ultimately Right. So
Speaker 0 00:27:20 Yeah, exactly. Definitely need somebody to reign in. You know, the one exec that's read blitz scaling by Reed Hoffman and thinks that, uh, they shake people that are just listening. We're laughing with knowledge. There's a couple of people, but yes, you and we all get those. No, do it this way. Let's see, let's take a bit of both. Let's see how we can navigate this. Um, yeah, that's pet hates when mentioned that word. I'm just like you, I don't think you understand what's involved that, but, ok, <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:27:54 No, it's a funny one. We upset every manager and passionate leader there from a hiring of view. But, um, something else I you're equally as passionate about, um, is kinda employer brand, um, and how you position that proposition to potential and current employees about who you are as an organization and, and why people should, should join the mission. Right. Um, and I know that you did a big piece of work on this in around, uh, the redesign and relaunch of this, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> at Mm. Um, I'd love to get a bit of the, the background thinking right, in terms of what, what drove the business decision to work on this particular initiative. Um, cause I think there's a distinction between someone wanting to, to do it for the, and wanting to do it for the good of the business. Um, and, you know, when do you know that timing for this sort of project is right, you know, for a scaling company, um, is a bit, Sorry, it's a big question with a few layers in there, but I think it's important. It's a sort of thing recruiters want do when we grow up, right? Like it's, I guess, yeah, differentiating between personal motivations to do a project like this and business motivations to do a project like this and what triggers there are in a business that say, yes, it's the time to invest in something like this.
Speaker 0 00:29:15 Yeah. Ok. Yeah. Good question. Um, so first off, uh, yes, it's great, it's great experience. It's really hard. So people that haven't do it and think like it's pictures, it's just a couple, it's so much more than that if it's done well. Um, and I'm not saying what we did at Molly was perfect, um, but we, we did partner with some on it as well cause we wanted to do it in depth. And so first things first, EVP is not just employer brands. Um, it's also about that the concept of making it come to life internally, right? So we could go out as recruiters and present the employer brand, um, but if we're pitching Coca-Cola and they come in, it's Pepsi, you know, there's gonna, there's gonna be a problem, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but, you know, if you sell one thing you expect to get solve.
Speaker 0 00:30:03 Um, so it's, it's about the whole, the whole life of it underpins everything strategically from a business in relation to its people. So it really is a huge strategic piece of work. Um, so for me, one of the things, there's a couple of things that triggered it. So what were the problems we were trying to solve at Molly? Um, I joined in November, 2020, uh, at the peak or just at, as the peak of insanity was starting with, I mean, it's always been hard and tech, it always has, but we, we, you know, we were entering that mode. You guys know it at where things just exploded. Yeah. And again, if you're a startup scale, upsetting fast growth and interesting projects, you, you sound exactly like everybody else. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So again, it's, you know, you sit in a room and everyone go, Why? Yeah, but we the best company to work for, We can offer this and this and this.
Speaker 0 00:30:54 Like, yeah, so's grown enormously and they're just down the road and they're offering you. So how do we differentiate ourselves? Toro's a great organization to work for, for the personality of working to Miro I'm sure is different than it's working to Molly. Yeah. How do we, how do we pitch that? And to your point, you mentioned it earlier, right? It's not just about attraction, it's about repelling people that aren't right for your organization. Yeah. So actually it does both those things. So it, it makes that promise to you as, as a candidate to say, Okay, this is the experience that you'll have. This is the unique personality in the DNA of Molly and how it would really benefit you if you're looking for this sort of organization. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So again, it's articulating, understanding yourself enough and like, it's like any person, right? When you the date it's selfa aware enough, yeah, this is who I am.
Speaker 0 00:31:44 Um, I'm not gonna change. I wanna, you know, I always wanna do better you on you and a better person, but this is who you know, I am who I, and what, and I'm, that's, that's what triggered it at Molly. I think when you've got either hiring challenges or you've got growth or you've got, um, expansion across country, it's a good time to start to look at it. Yeah. Um, that for me is probably some of the key trigger points because you also have to understand nuances of hiring and in different countries and different, uh, you know, the different requirements that each country has. So the pitch we make to people in the UK in Central London, it's gonna be very different. Not very different, but nuance to the pitch that we give candidates in Germany, for example. Cause you know, sometimes cross-culturally people are looking for slightly different things from an employer and we can, we just, just need to dial up or dial down those things. It's not about misinformation, but if some people, you know, one country they're looking for something else, cause market conditions, we can dial up that element for them. And then we different elsewhere about, uh, you're gonna have to put me a little bit now cause I'm going into
Speaker 1 00:32:58 No, that did answer the question. Yeah. We were looking to kinda figure out what the, the business triggers might be to, to say, Okay, cool, we need to focus on this brand. Makes sense to me. Now, say we've identified these triggers, um, we've put our, we're building our proposal as heads of, of TA or TA leaders and we're going to whoever holds the budget. How are we telling these people, um, that we're gonna deliver a return on whatever budget they're gonna give us for this? How, how do we sit down and say, if you give this, I'm gonna do this and it's gonna you, it's right.
Speaker 0 00:33:35 <laugh>. Oh yeah. Re especially again, especially when you've a, you know, one of the great things about having a diverse organization is people think completely differently, but cause people think, think differently, you have to then prepare, how am I gonna influence all these people to think completely differently triggered by different and different working, Right? So there were some people that totally got it, like, understood why we doing it, didn't understand the intricacies, but understood, you know, the premise in the same way that a marketing understands, you know, company brand, right? Brander. And it was like, absolutely whatever I can do to help umprobably the more numbers and figures side, uh, we'll probably a little more. Ok. Explain to me what this actually means, like long term, and I think it's, I don't want it to sound like a scapegoat, but usually the hiring, leading with the hiring is the quickest way to get investments.
Speaker 0 00:34:31 I know it sounds awful, but, uh, because recruitment is so easily construed into numbers, facts and figures, it's the best way to make your case. Uh, in the initial, in the short term, in terms of short term investment, uh, the TA pitch is the best one to do in terms of people culture, retention, retention of high performing talent, development of talent, um, you know, to make sure you don't have a, a revolving issue. Um, that's where the sort of employee experience of your EVP comes in. So that, you know, that's gonna be the return investment in the long term. You'll keep better people longer alongside hiring better people. Cause we're offering a experience to people which can lead into the better assessment processes and X, y, Z um, we'll keep high performing people longer if they join, excited about the experience of working at X organizational or in this case Molly. Mm. And the experience of working at Molly continues for the entire duration of them working here. So why, why would they leave if they're getting all the things they love about work in this place and they enjoy working there, You know, So it's a bit, again, it's a no brainer, but, but because that can be quite a long term return investments and sort of 2, 3, 4, 5, your plans aren't always front of mind when you start, or <laugh> tend to lean a little bit more on the, and
Speaker 1 00:35:55 A ton of sense. And it is a long tail, um, activity, right? Um, it's very difficult to quantify, hey, in three years time when that high performing individual leaves our organization for justifiable reasons and they're still continuing to recommend their friends and we're still making hires off the back of that, um, is a reality, Right? But yeah. One that you have to show a, a slightly different, uh, perspective on. But that's brilliant. Thank you. So let's dive into a few broader topics that I'd love to get your your thoughts on. Um, I hate talking about this stuff at the moment, but it's very topical. But the changing economy, um, I guess it's throwing up many challenges, um, for businesses and their people. Um, it's not something we can avoid. Um, it's very topical right now. We all have the television news conducting businesses, um, and talent leaders undoubtedly play a sort of a critical role in, in helping organizations navigate these sort of, um, choppy waters. Um, and I don't think we're we're fully through them yet, or, or even into the chopt if I'm being completely honest. But for those looking ahead, um, what would you be prioritizing from a talent and people perspective kind of right now with this in mind and, and why?
Speaker 0 00:37:10 That's such good question. Um, there's a <laugh> Yeah, there's a number of things have floating recently and one of the things I love about LinkedIn is it's such a, you know, it can be a resource for a lot of rubbish that people post on there, but also some really interesting insights and interesting trends in the market as well. Right? You know, we, you know, we're seeing trends of, um, suffering at the, of the economy stuff. But actually for me, that then triggers the conversation of, in, in a diverse company, we've got lots of different roles. You've got sales roles, you've got people roles, you've got project manage roles. Was there no opportunity to absorb reabsorb, uh, some of that talent into other roles for a defined or short period of time? Um, that's always one. So for me it's, you know, are we thinking imaginatively enough of what companies can do?
Speaker 0 00:37:59 So I'm not saying this is a perfect answer and it's a lot of responsibility to, it's very easy for me to sit back as a, as a one-man band and say, I think should do <laugh>. But you know, if organizations it'll around again, it'll, and you whatever time that may be, it'll again, probably harder than never. Uh, and track people. Um, but are we, you know, are organizations thinking laterally enough and creatively enough about retaining good people, um, in the long term? And, you know, is, you know, and some companies absolutely are and they're doing amazing work, um, and being as transparent about it. And there are some really companies out there that I'm sure probably aren't. It's a purely commercial decision as opposed to a talent. Interesting. I retention's gonna a big one, but I, above all, it's how can the TA chael themselves, again, oftentimes, especially large organizations, they're very externally focused mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:38:58 <affirmative>. But how can we shift that to, you know, I'm always surprised that talent acquisition don't get more involved in talent development and succession planning and more internal mobility, right? Because the skill picking great talent is, you know, you're still trying to identify great talent internally. So I always find it interesting that there're, you know, there's again, more like demarcation between all these departments. So how can we broaden up maybe the scope of, um, talent acquisition to include talent, uh, internal, um, especially in the large organizations. You see great organizations, an internal hunting team to a certain extent where they, you know, they out great talent and them wealth internally and how can we help and how can we up the TA role to do that more I think is super interesting. Um, and the same thing with Covid, uh, that happened with is everybody's watching to see how organizations behave during this time.
Speaker 0 00:39:50 And I think I've, again, I don't like mentioning things, but there's letters of offers being rescinded that have gotten to LinkedIn from really reput organizations that I really respect. And you never know the full story. Um, but there's always none of, we really have to think hard about how we're going to navigate this marketplace, especially in, uh, this world where anything you do and say could be post online within three seconds, that shouldn't be the reason why you do it. The reason you should do it would be back to, you know, those core and you know, those people intention. We wanna do white five <inaudible>. Um, but I think that's gonna be a really big thing. So I think how we navigate and how we look after our employees over the next sort of 12 to 20 months is gonna exactly like come back to us if we don't do it in the right way or the honest way.
Speaker 1 00:40:36 Yeah. And I think, I think it should be a top interview question for anybody, right? Mm. You know, please talk me through how the impact that d or um, said economic events had on your business. You know, what was the impact of that? How did you handle that? And I think you'll get telling answers. There are organizations obviously that can't afford to, there're organizations that can, but yeah, there's some really interesting things that you can do when, uh, referred to it as like putting up the drawbridge. You know, when you've, you pulled up the draw bridge and you're not doing the perspective, there's a ton of things that can be done keep to, uh, to, to <laugh> ready for Yeah. The next, right.
Speaker 0 00:41:16 Yeah, No, absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:41:18 And touching on something that you, you mentioned a minute ago, um, you shared I think talent, a concept, um, of companies sort of evolving from offering kind of like the traditional career ladder to more of a career portfolio. Um, so instead of that sort of quite linear growth Yeah. I suppose offering employees diverse challenges and experiences, um, yeah. As part of that career portfolio. So a couple of questions on that, if we can jump straight into it. So why do you think that's sort of important now, um, from I guess an employer employee perspective and how can people leaders facilitate this better and put measures in place to ensure that, you know, whilst doing so, the individuals and teams can hit their as well as providing that breadth of, of experience for everybody? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:42:09 Yeah, it's a good question. So it sounds strange, but this has always been sort of bubbling in the back of my mind. I had a really interesting conversation, maybe like five years ago. Um, I was sort of working as a proxy business partner, uh, to, for those that in London for um, uh, the building 22 bishop, which is, uh, big skyscraper and central. So work, I was a BP to the project director that was responsible for building it. And we had a conversation once and he was like, I'm really stuck with succession planning. And I was like, What's the problem? He's like, You pay well, nobody wants my job. Nobody wants the responsibility of my job. Um, cuz everyone is earning, earning, well, they've got relatively good life balance. They're in a job that they enjoy. They're learning loads, They have no ambition or motivation to have the additional responsibility of being end responsible.
Speaker 0 00:43:06 I'm a bit, I'm, I'm stuck as to how I'm gonna do the succession planning internally without having to buy the resource outside coming in. How, you know. So that for me was so interesting because it's like one, there's a different problem at stake there, but that definitely makes sense to me. Um, you know, again, I'm pretty happy with what I do now. I wouldn't really wanna go any further cause I also wouldn't wanna be a, I think it's an incredibly hard job. Um, and you get so much stuff thrown at you, some of it really technical and legal, which is the last thing that I'd be interested in looking after. But, um, you just, people that do it, but it's hard, right? You know, how do you, how do you motivate people? So in turn, if they don't want the upward ability, how long do you have them before they get bored and want to leave because their brain isn't being, um, engaged enough and they're not learning.
Speaker 0 00:43:55 They've stopped learning maybe after two, three years of doing the same role on the, on the same job. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that for me has always triggered that, well how can we keep people? And it actually, you know, and you hear term quite quitting at the, which is flying everywhere. That's sort of a solution, those sorts of things, right? In way that to of people. Um, of course now I don't wanna do the next stuff. I'm where I'm, I can, you know, I can have the life that I want. Um, I can afford the lifestyle that I want. Why would I want anything else? Uh, cause they're sort of reach that point. So again, it's that point of how do we, you know, benefit by retaining this great talent? Cause actually those resources and that knowledge we don't wanna lose. So actually can they help, uh, laterally across the business as opposed vertical?
Speaker 0 00:44:38 I think that's one thing, especially with market conditions right now. There's a lot of people, um, sales is another one that's moment is how can that skill be put to different use in an organization. Like again, if I was gonna speak super bluntly, I think if we're really thinking hard about this, we don't, we've never had a war on, we've had a shortage of imagination, um, of what we can do with great people. I'm not saying I know the, but when you look at and you people planet, like, we're just going for the path of least resistance by hiring one person that's done X into a role that just does X. You know? So I think that if we really thought about it, the best organizations out there are people with great leaders, uh, who can have the opportunity and the yes, this person won't have potentially completely wrong the output as someone's for, but, but the basic skills are there.
Speaker 0 00:45:34 And I think that's where, um, we get back to that concept around, uh, what is the, what, what, what career architecture do you have? How do you measure competencies? What competencies these, So again, another piece that's started to scale up don't like talking. It seems like two processing is having a proper career architecture and proper content within that. So you can actually look at a TP and go, Okay, well these are the competencies and that actually cross matches relatively closely to an xz. So how can we help fill the gap on those competencies they've probably never done? So there's, let's, let's take that risk and let's make that investment and we'll see, we'll see what happens. Again, it's, it's a simple answer. It's very easy for me to say sitting here, but I think that's probably gonna be the future. Cause I think a lot of people don't want these top jobs anymore. And actually they prefer to stay somewhere for the culture. But then how can we constantly keep, um, stimulating their brain and helping them stimulate the business.
Speaker 1 00:46:36 Yeah, I think it's, uh, it's a really interesting point. And a previous guess we had on was talking about the shift in, I suppose I don't recall how many years I've been working now, but it's certainly different, uh, the employer employee relationship, right? Like it's far more fluid. Like you said, where you were with Molly, you had five other amazing organizations within walking distance from, from your business, right? So what is it that's gonna keep those people in your organization and, and challenged, right? Um, because if they're not getting the challenged, then they can quite easily walk to another awesome company and do do the challenge. It's gonna keep them engaged, right? So, yeah, no, I think it's a, it's a massive, massive topic and probably one we can dive into in, in more detail, um, <laugh> on another. Um, but couple of questions, um, as I think we're, we're close to time sadly, but is there anything that you've consistently seen many startups or scale up get wrong? Um, that in your costs Greatly? One, but I'll let you go back. Oh,
Speaker 0 00:47:48 Oh, <laugh>, <laugh>, <laugh>. You ready? Um, I think we hit on a of them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is treating process and structure like a dirty word. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I, I think that's really shortsighted. I think that's, um, I think you're reading into right? As opposed to how you it Yeah, that's a big one. Um, if that's probably the one that sticks out most. I'm m so I'm distracted cause I'm treated as to what you're gonna say now. Um, I'm, yeah, that's really from my perspective, what, what's, obviously you've got a bulb go what's, what's,
Speaker 1 00:48:21 No, I'm gonna give one me as the, that the mistakes, um, <laugh>, um, to be balanced. So, and it's, I guess it's agreeing and relating to what you said around the process. I used to call it the B-word. Um, and it's, that's, um, that to a point you don't need it, but you don't get a warning that hey, you're gonna need it soon. You're gonna need it soon. You don't, don't need it soon. You get, I don't need it. And then, oh shit, I needed it. Yeah. Like that. Um, and this sort of links into what I see in other organizations. So I tried to resist process for, for a long time and I think really started to feel it 20 to 50. Um, and if you don't have it 50 to a hundred during a whole world of mess. Um, and then beyond that <laugh>, it's, it's a completely different story and I think linked to that and it's the key-word and it's linked with the talent attraction piece. If I go to those very early stage organizations and we talk about like we did previously, that's sort of long tail of investments.
Speaker 0 00:49:27 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:49:28 <affirmative>, I'm the early stage organization and less than 50 people. So the focus is very much on, I just need to make these next 10 hires. I just need to make these 10 hires. And that's true. Those, those next 10 hires are kind of super critical to the future success of, of the organization. But I see time and time again that that is the time to start putting in my first everything, my first recruitment system, my first dashboard, my first process that I will measure with my first dashboard, you know, my first cadence of ongoing improvement. And I know they're not important then, but when you hit series B and you've got probably a kind of more mature and dare I say, uh, demanding, um, investor base and and board. Yeah. Um, you're gonna be operationally slow. Um, so I always encourage people on that P word. Um, it's okay. Embrace it because you don't need it, you don't need it. Oh damn, I really needed it. Yeah, yeah. Is the way it goes and it costs you time. I've heard people call it kinda people debt, operational debt many different ways, but like its debt and it slows you down and is so easily solvable.
Speaker 0 00:50:40 Yeah. And it doesn't and it doesn't need to be restrictive. I think that's the thing. People think of the word and think, oh slow and it's like, no, a good clean process can actually make so many more things so much quicker and more efficient.
Speaker 1 00:50:52 And that's, that's the design of it, isn't it? That it more effective, it gives the opportunity to report optimize. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> ironically the same way and the same space, ironically in the same way someone build a product. And I'm very passionate about recruiting and people and talent being a product of the organization. No one makes any software without tracking or measuring it or iterating or, or you know, all of that type of good stuff. So it's basically relaying very similar principles to building a product, um, to building a people and talent function because it is the most important very bias, um, product in, in your organization. Right. So before I go off on a crazy one, um, tangent wise, uh, let's go on a bit more of a a lighthearted note. So, um, you could invite three people either from the present or from the past to a dinner party. Who would they be and why?
Speaker 0 00:51:48 Well, there has to be champagne at dinner party. Cause that's gonna mean the best stories. Cause you know, after a couple everybody's got much detail. Um, David Abo would be off my list, I think. I think he's probably the most popular dinner party on Earth. Yes. Yeah. I thinks on everyone's list. So I'm gonna go with the crowd on that one. Cause I just think he's amazing. Um, Clark Gable, I think he's the epitome of what every man be and look like Lizabeth and I think should be great at dinner.
Speaker 1 00:52:18 I hear you and I,
Speaker 0 00:52:19 What's He's too, I
Speaker 1 00:52:23 High high versus that one. What you I I I I would imagine David atten Brewers is up there on most people's. He'll definitely be on mine. Um, I'd have to add Denzel Denzel Washington to party. Well,
Speaker 0 00:52:38 Ah, yeah. He's a
Speaker 1 00:52:41 Probably less dangerous than the, but. Cool. Well, you very and almost finally, is there kind of a, a value or a thought or a phrase or a, a thing that you sort of tend to, to live by and hold dear to you? Or kinda a mantra so to speak?
Speaker 0 00:53:00 Don't Be a dick is probably a good one. Um, and, uh, just have like, life is short. Like enjoy it. Like don't take tells too seriously. Like we work with some very serious people sometimes and we've all been there and you see it's a hard day when you have to work with people that take themselves too seriously. It's much more fun if you can have fun.
Speaker 1 00:53:21 Absolutely agree. And, um, now that you've started your own organization, Charlotte, how can people kinda reach you, um, if they're interested in, um, hearing about how you can help them achieve their people and talent success?
Speaker 0 00:53:33 Oh, ok. Yeah. So, um, on LinkedIn I do talks like this all the time, but yeah, just reach out to me so we can a chat. I mean, I think more often, you know, organizations like this and what you, you are doing with podcast is really about sharing information. So I also know that maybe not everybody will be in a position to be able to partner with me on, you know, giving them support. But I'm also here just to talk about stuff, right? That's the best thing is having the time to, and build relationships and give advice. Um, and I'm sort of proxy, uh, coaching a couple of t heads of TA in different organizations. The moment, which I also love it be a is a organization with all cause you know, you're of number one, uh, spotlight alongside a couple of in organization Ford period of time. So it be a difficult, um, yeah. So I'm on LinkedIn, so feel to.
