Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 To scale the team, something important that we changed as well. Um, just to finish up, was the fact, I think when, when you're building your team, something important that you think about is who are the people that are gonna fit our culture so that we can start building this great culture that we have? Right? When you have that, I think the question you need to start, um, asking yourself during the recruitment process is what kind of people can add something to the, to the culture that we already have, right? So challenging what we already have in place, um, bringing something new to the team. And I think that's super special, and that's very, very important, and that's what will help you scale.
Speaker 1 00:00:38 So, uh, Maria and Marianna, it's really, really pleased to be chatting with you today. Um, first of all, thank you for joining us on the Scaling so Far podcast. It's, uh, really great to have you with us. Um, so for our listeners, could you tell us a little bit about yourselves to kick things off, please, Maria, should we start with you?
Speaker 2 00:00:59 Yeah, sure. Uh, first of all, thank you so much for having us. Uh, we are quite happy to receive the invites. I think this is the first podcast that we do, not counting with one that we try to record ourselves, that <laugh>, uh, didn't end up so great. So it's, uh, really cool that, uh, we get to do this for the first time, uh, with you guys. Um, so a little bit about me. I'm currently head ofs and people at Valley Space. My background is actually in law and business, which was really helpful when I got started here at Valley Space. Um, I got started in 2018, so a long time ago now, and we were only four or five, I believe, and at the time, everything was needed to be set up. So that background of having both the law and the business side, uh, I think it really helped me, um, go along, uh, in the growth of the, of the company.
Speaker 2 00:01:51 Um, and of course since then, I'm really happy to, uh, have been joined by mena. Uh, for, for the people part, it's been a dream working with her. Um, as far outside of Valley Space, uh, I do a little bit of what everyone does, I believe, uh, especially when we do interviews and we ask, uh, what you like to do outside of work, I realize that everyone kind of has the same interest. So of course, reading, uh, I'm currently trying to complete a reading challenge, uh, until the end of the year, so I'm not sure if I'll make it because I still have five books to, to catch up on. Um, but besides that, I love to travel. I love to go on hikes and adventures. Uh, I love the beach as a true Portuguese person. Uh, the beach is where I feel most comfortable, uh, at, and that's more or less it's
Speaker 1 00:02:43 Wonderful. Thank you. It's really lovely to meet you. Um, and Marinna.
Speaker 0 00:02:48 Yeah. Hi everyone. So, um, well, my background is also not in tech or in people or anything related. Uh, my background is actually in hospitality, and that's where I started my career. Um, and I've seen both sides of HR and people operations, right? So I know the real difference between these two. Um, and I think it's something that I'm always, always, uh, trying to, uh, get some, you know, back up on and like trying to get people to understand the difference between HR and people. And I hate it when people don't, um, try at least to, to understand this difference because there is a real difference. Um, so yeah, I started my career in, in the hotel business, uh, first, uh, in, in the operation side of things, so front office and so on. Um, and then, uh, I moved to, to detect startup world, um, and, and joined the people operations team.
Speaker 0 00:03:43 Um, and I, I've joined another tech startup before, uh, joining Valley Space, uh, and I was there for a year and a half. Um, and then I met Maria and I think it was Destiny, Uh, and now we're working together and, and it's been lovely. Um, so, uh, besides that, I'm from Portugal, not from Lisbon though, where Valley Space is based. I'm from the south of Portugal, so where, where all the nice beaches are. Um, so the beach is also the place that I feel most comfortable with. I love, uh, walking my dog by the beach. Um, and besides that, in terms of interest, it's exactly what Maria said. I guess we're just two very normal people, aside from the, like, normal interests of everyone, like reading, listening to music, going to festivals, whatnot. I really enjoy doing ceramics and tape a train weaving. So that's, those are two things that I used to do, uh, during quarantine and when I did not have a dog. So since I have a dog, my time is pretty busy, but I try to, I try to do it as much as I can. And, um, that's me.
Speaker 1 00:04:47 Yeah. As a person with two dogs, I can completely understand that it sounds match made in he and you speak so highly of each other, which is really lovely to hear. And, and, and you work in a company of rocket scientists, which for me is just the most, the most amazing thing, right? Um, so Data Space launched in 2016 with some incredibly talented founders by the looks of things, um, a really, really interesting company in a really interesting proposition. So would you mind sharing a bit about your mission, vision values?
Speaker 0 00:05:21 Yeah, sure. So, uh, I think one of the most amazing things about Valley Space before we get into our mission and vision is that, uh, it was actually founded, and you mentioned that too. It was founded by people that worked in the, uh, space industry before, right? So, and why this is so important for me is that, um, they realized the actual need for Valley space to exist, right? And I think this is major for a startup. Um, and, uh, going a bit deeper into our mission. So I think the best way to describe it is that we are enabling hardware, agile hardware engineering, and we do that because as of today, um, the time and cost that it takes to make significant new innovations that will actually help solve our current pro problems like climate change, um, and so on, has really grown. Uh, and so to, um, to, to help that, uh, there is a clear need to speed up fast iterations and agile hardware development to bring is that promised future sooner. And that's basically what value space is trying to do by our software.
Speaker 1 00:06:24 How you explain it makes it for a non-technical person like me reading your website with the first time, I was like, Wow, these people are super smart, right? So it, it's awesome to hear you, you speak about it that way. I mean, in terms of, um, kind of how it's been set up, Maria, you've been there, well, really since beginning, as you said, you know, four or five people. So you've hired almost everyone on the team date, including the wonderful Marianna. Um, could you tell us a little bit about what that was like? Were you setting up from scratch? Was there anything in existence, READi? How did you go about that? What was your approach?
Speaker 2 00:07:07 Yeah, sure. So first of all, I don't think I really knew what I was getting myself into, but I guess I like a little bit of craziness. Um, so because I, I started Valley Space right after finishing my masters, so I had no real work experience besides, uh, the internships that I've, uh, done before while I was studying. Uh, but this was, you know, the first time that I was working at a real company. The thing is that the real company was still developing. And, uh, it was quite hard to understand that, you know, you, I didn't have everything, um, in, in my power to, to, you know, come in and actually apply it. I had to first build it. I had to first think about, uh, what the best process was. Uh, it's not like someone was giving me processes and I would just, uh, implement them.
Speaker 2 00:07:59 So I think that was the trickier part, not really having anything. It was clean, um, slate state, how do you say it? Clean slate. Um, which was scary. But at the same time, quite cool because you get to, uh, basically draw the growth of a company, uh, alongside with the founders, uh, and have, let's say your, your own footprints, uh, in what valley space is, uh, right now and today. And that started, of course, with the, with hiring the right team. Um, and at the time, in the beginning, uh, there was no clear process, to be honest. Uh, but at the same time, uh, since I've been doing a lot of interviews in the past, uh, I, interviews were always, something, was always something that scared me when I was studying. So the way that I coped with that was to go for a lot of interviews and a lot of in, uh, recruitment processes.
Speaker 2 00:08:57 I don't think Madena knows this actually <laugh>. Uh, but every time I saw a new position for an internship or a job, even if I didn't really want to apply, I would go for it anyways, just to get the experience and see what other companies were doing in the recruitment processes, the questions they would ask me. I always thought that, uh, people ask the most random things, but in the end, it kind of makes sense. Um, I mean, sometimes made sense, sometimes other times you didn't really make a lot of sense, some of the questions, uh, but it was cool to see how the recruitment processes, uh, were established for companies. And I think that inspired me a lot while developing the, the hiring process for Valley Space, which as I mentioned in the beginning was very loose. Uh, but then it started having a real rhythm to it, a real process.
Speaker 2 00:09:49 Uh, we had interview guidelines for each step. We would prepare the team, uh, for each step of the recruitment process. Um, and I think that was really necessary for us to make sure that we are, uh, the gatekeepers, let's say, of the company. Uh, but at the same time, uh, allowing the, the team to be diverse, uh, and to include smart people, uh, who are also kinds, I think that's, uh, also something we, we need to look for in the recruitment process. Both, you know, the technical skills, but the soft skills. So, um, that's basically how we had all got started. We, we started just with a few interviews, just me and Louis, uh, the founder at the time. And then we started integrating more team members into the process. And of course, the, the more people are involved, the more process you need, the more structure you need.
Speaker 2 00:10:40 Uh, and I think it just came naturally, um, with the way that we did the, the recruitment process. But of course, it all got way better once Mariana joined, uh, she optimized the process <laugh>, uh, which just to give you an idea, before, for us to hire a software developer, it would take us three to six months. Um, but then when Marianna joined, she, she basically saw that that was impossible if you wanted to, to, to keep doing, if you wanted to scale. Uh, and she went out there and asked people what they were doing and how they were working. Uh, and basically now, uh, we already had people being hired in just one week, so from beginning to end in one week, which I think is, uh, mind blowing.
Speaker 1 00:11:28 Yeah, I, I love that. I mean, I read, um, I read on your website around your, um, one of your values being kind of getting involved and getting your hands dirty and, and kind of understanding and learning yourself. And actually it seems that both of you just do that naturally. I love the fact that you went and basically did a load of research on every company and how they were doing interviews just by experiencing yourself. And I expect that was a really kind of interesting way of seeing kind of how you felt when you came out of those interviews to say, actually that's a, I mean, it was a lot of your time, right? But <laugh>, but also a really interesting way for you to feel like actually that worked really well. I'll use that as part of my process. I mean, I guess as part of the kind of, um, the scaling piece, and, you know, I've seen this with organizations before, as they get bigger, trying to keep the quality of the interviewing and the quality of the people that you are bringing in can sometimes be quite difficult as you bring in more interviewers into the fold, right?
Speaker 1 00:12:31 So how, how is that kind of changed as you've been? Cause you've implemented your first process, you said it quite at the beginning and then came, but has that changed much as you've been scaling that team? So have you had to do more training? Is there more structure around the type of individuals you meet as well as the process?
Speaker 2 00:12:53 Yes, definitely. I think what has helped us was to already have a pretty fined set of questions that people really need to ask. Yeah. Uh, of course they can go, uh, off script, let's say like this if the conversation leads them there, but they always need to come back and ask specific questions mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and it's based on those answers that we can then assess if the person, uh, has the right skills or not. Uh, sometimes even with all the interviews that we do and all the questions that we ask, it's still not clear who is the right person, right? Sometimes we have two people who are strong in different, uh, ways. Uh, they both have this, the strength and the weaknesses. Uh, and it's a really, really hard decision to make, right? Uh, sometimes it's just based on intuition. I know this is not, uh, a good answer to give, but we do need to trust our intuition and also the experience that we have from the past sometimes to, to take the, the final decision.
Speaker 2 00:13:56 But, uh, I think it's always super important that you have, um, an objective process in the sense that you know, that everyone is going to be treated fairly and in the same way up until the moment when you have to make a decision. And that's of course, uh, the combination of everything that you heard, everything that you saw about the person, um, that will then allow you to, to make that final decision. But I think what is really important, um, in the, what was already important in the beginning and is still important now, is to make sure that the team knows what the questions are and what we are looking for. So there's always, let's say when we, we open a new position, NNA always does a debrief with the, the team that will be involved in the recruitment process to ensure that everyone is aligned in as to, uh, you know, what type type of person are we looking for? What are the values that they need to have, have, what are the skills that, uh, they also need to have experience on. So that debrief is always fundamental to make sure that the recruitment process runs smoothly.
Speaker 0 00:15:02 Um, for me it's super important that we have at least a semi-structured process, right? I think that's the only way to make it work and to have like great interviews and a great candidate experience. It's obvious, like we have a, as, as Maria said, interview guidelines. And to be honest, I was very surprised when I joined Valley Space, like such an early stage startup with already such a, a good process in place, you know, and already quite structured. Um, so, so yeah. Um, having a semi-structured process is super important, allowing for, to allow people to have just a regular conversation and make candidates feel comfortable as well, but at the same time, having some specific questions that they need to ask so that we get the answers that we need in order to make a good final decision at the end. Right. Um, and we, we are able to do that because beforehand there's some pre-work I do together with the hiring manager and the team, as Maria was saying.
Speaker 0 00:15:51 So before we get into speaking with the team, I do have a meeting with the hiring manager, which by the way, is fully responsible and makes really hiring a priority that's also super important for hiring, hiring to run smoothly. Um, and sometimes that's why there are a lot of misalignments and sometimes, like some positions take longer cuz the hiring team is not fully responsible and not owning completely the recruitment process to scale the team. Something important that we changed as well, um, just to finish up, was the fact, I think when, when you're building your team, something important that you think about is who are the people that are gonna fit our culture so that we can start building this great culture that we have, Right? When you have that, I think the question you need to start, um, asking yourselves during the recruitment process is what kind of people can add something to the, to the culture that we already have, right?
Speaker 0 00:16:42 So challenging what we already have in place, um, bringing something new to the team. And I think that's super special and that's very, very important and that's what will help you scale the Indian, right? Sorry. Um, and, uh, India, then we moved totally into structured hiring, right? So we have our ATS now running, we have data reports, and we really try to try to move into data driven hiring as well, um, hearing to what the candidates have to say, like improving their experience. Um, each time we, we open a new recruitment process. Um, and then as Maria said, we had a, a big peak event revamp in the hiring process for, for tech roles. That really helped us to, um, obviously improve the candidate experience on that side, um, and make it much faster to, to hire, um, candidates.
Speaker 1 00:17:31 Yeah, I mean, I, I love the fact that you guys are flexible in this kind of regard, right? Like, and when you were talking about, um, you know, you, you, you, you have to look at things as you go to say, Okay, here's the culture we were trying to foster in the beginning. Here's the sort of behaviors that we were looking at, but actually we don't want to just recruit the same person over and over and over and over again. Um, and we're gonna, I'm gonna talk about diversity a little bit later on, um, in this conversation, but, you know, making sure you have a diversity of, um, behaviors, communication styles, you know, it's that initiative thing you were talking about, Maria, in terms of like, how do we, how do we make sure that we aren't just cloning people, <laugh> and having an army of, of, of people who are exactly the same, especially in a startup that's, you know, growing as effectively as you guys.
Speaker 2 00:18:22 Um, and some something, sorry, just to add something also to think about, um, as the team grows is how a certain person will fit into an already existing team, right? Because you want to have a well-balanced team. If you already have a team that you see that everyone is very, let's say, subordinate in the sense that they say yes to everything and they don't question anything, that's also not good, right? It's good. So I have people who say yes, but it's also good to have people who question things. So when you're hiring, you always see, okay, what does this team actually need? Do they need a yes? Say, do they need someone who brings a little bit of tension to make things happen? Uh, and to bring things forward? Um, how will this person fit with their team leads? Uh, are there going to be conflicts or not, depending on the personalities? So everything, uh, counts when you make the decision, and especially when you scale the team, that's even more important because it's not like that person is going to be isolated, right? They're going to be involved, uh, with other people that will affect their work and vice versa.
Speaker 1 00:19:29 Cause cultural alignment is actually a core step in your process, isn't it? Right? Yes. So after the, so once you've made sure they are available, interested, you've done the technical bit, you know, they can do the job, I love that there's a whole separate step for will you fit with us? What can you bring to us? Um, I love that. Um, so in terms of, this has been quite a process for you guys, right? In terms of setting things up and making sure that things are, are, are working. What would be your core learnings, your big learnings for other organizations or other, um, people and talent, you know, uh, leaders that are come coming into this space, into the, um, startup tech space. What <laugh> what would you tell them? What would be your, um, hints and tips?
Speaker 2 00:20:19 Yeah, sure. Uh, maybe I can get started. So, um, I, I thought about it a couple. I would say that first and most importantly, always ask feedback from your team and also from the candidates if we are now focusing on the re recruitment process. Um, but it's essential to always listen to your team regardless of whatever you're doing. It could be just to set up a remote friendly, uh, policy, as we will probably mention in a bit, uh, from also creating a recruitment process. Always listen to what is working or not to your, from your team perspective, so you can adjust accordingly. And of course, in the recruitment process, it's even more important to listen to the candidates, right? To understand if they're having a good experience, a bad experience, uh, how they were treated, if the questions made sense for them or not. Um, then I would also say that a big learning is that structure and process is key, uh, to make sure that you have objective, um, an objective, uh, recruitment process, uh, again, that you then have, uh, that, that you then bring diverse people into the team and that she respect, um, everyone in a fair way.
Speaker 2 00:21:31 Um, I think another big learning is that, uh, you don't always get it right. Uh, even if you follow the process, uh, even if you think that you have the right person, sometimes people surprise you, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively. Uh, but that's just also part of it. So it's okay if you don't always hire the right person. Um, as long as you know, you did everything in your power to make sure, um, that that person would eventually be, be right for your team. Um, and again, uh, if you're someone working for, in a, in a people team, uh, make sure that you're the gatekeeper, as I mentioned previously, right? Because you're the first person that candidates we will, uh, hear from. Um, so you'll be representing the company, but you'll also be protecting the company. Uh, and that's super important when developing, um, a recruitment process too.
Speaker 1 00:22:27 It's a quality control, isn't it?
Speaker 2 00:22:29 Exactly. <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:22:31 Thank you. So that's kind of been your journey to date. So what does the road ahead look like from a people and talent perspective at balance space? So are there any specific initiatives that you're gonna be focusing on to achieve your growth goals going forward?
Speaker 0 00:22:47 Uh, yeah, there are, well, uh, we do have some, some strategy in place or we, we are putting into, into place right now. So I think that the most important things we're focusing on right now is we are, so we already have quite some processes in place. So one of our focuses right now is actually to improve on these processes. So we have our hiring process, like now let's rethink a bit and iterate a bit on, um, how we can make it better even, right? How we can make it faster, um, how we can try to fail less on in terms of hiring, right? Um, and how can we train the team into adapting to these, to, to this new hiring process as well, better. Um, then, um, we also have our processes in terms of, um, growth, right? So we don't, at Valley Space, we don't speak about performance reviews.
Speaker 0 00:23:34 We instead speak about growth alignment reviews, um, which happen. So we have a growth alignment process. We have these big reviews that happen like, uh, twice a year, but then we have have like small check-ins like that happen, um, another twice a year, I believe, right Maria? So once per quarter. Um, and, and this is to help people really think about how they wish to grow within the company and how we can help support them, um, into achieving those, those growth goals, right? Um, so, but that process is just, it, it has just begun. So we're actually going to, to, um, to have our first trial, let's say, um, in October, I believe. Uh, and, um, and then we're gonna see how that works and we're gonna see how to revamp that and how to improve that. We're gonna listen to the team, get some feedback on that and, and improve that as well.
Speaker 0 00:24:26 We're obviously not only going to improve processes, but there, because we are at an early stage, we have to still bring some more processes in, even though sometimes it's hard to, for people to, to accept that. But it's true that we need it cuz we're, we're getting quite, quite large now, so we need to have some more structure, um, going and, uh, just to, to finalize really, I think, um, one big thing for us right now is the fact that we're actually trying to consolidate the team that we have at the moment, right? So not only thinking about scaling and bringing new team members into, um, into valley space, but also thinking with the team that we have right now, how can we make them most engaged? How can we make them most motivated? How can we make them most, you know, the happiest team on earth? And, um, and that goes a lot with, um, where we're, we are working in different ways and doing our own research in terms of coaching the team and, um, and so on. So I think that's, that's something really big for, for people ops, uh, at Valley Space right now.
Speaker 2 00:25:26 Just maybe adding one thing on top of that is, uh, celebrating wins. That has become a really big topic. Uh, and by this I mean that after, uh, staying away from each other for so long with the pandemic, uh, and now the remote work policy, we sometimes forget to celebrate with each other, uh, the little wins of every day, Uh, you know, uh, because some people are not at the office and it's not as easy to, to go grab a coffee and say, Hey, congrats on this. I really saw that you did a great job here and there, uh, which is part of our job, but also of, uh, other, the rest of the team should congratulate each other on, on these little wings, and we want to focus more on that, having more celebrations, uh, along the way.
Speaker 1 00:26:13 I love that. I love alignment reviews. I'm sure there will be some people stealing that really like the fact that it's, it's not just looking at individuals needs, it's looking at the company requirements and how that, how that kind of feeds into it. Um, really like that. Um, so I guess another initiative that I know that you guys are working on quite strongly is the hiring of, um, more diverse talent in the developer space. That's obviously strategic and tactical measures to make sure that you are driving that agenda forward in terms of hiring those female developers. So maybe if we look at this from a recruitment perspective, um, and then also from an internal existing employees perspective, because as you mentioned, like making sure that the people you've got are doing everything they can be and want to be is an incredibly important thing for you guys. So
Speaker 0 00:27:08 Yeah, for sure. So I think one, uh, the first most important thing that we've done in terms of, of, of bringing this, this awareness of, of diversity in, um, in hiring female developers and so on, um, was the fact that we really needed to work on educating the team on how important diversity is on how the numbers were in the company and how, um, and what we could do in order to, to mitigate that, right? Um, and so, um, besides like, you know, speaking with the team and having like circles of discussion around this topic in like small gatherings and, and, and all hands meetings and so on, we actually invested in an unconscious bias training that really helped us to understand how we can, uh, again, mitigate some behaviors and some actions that we have in order to not discriminate, uh, against women or against, uh, um, gender against race, against whatever, right?
Speaker 0 00:28:01 Um, and then, um, so that was the first step I think for us to start really changing. Um, and then we have other, um, actionables that say, or other ideas that, that reimplemented. So our whole employer branding became much more gender, gender neutral, right? So we had to actually dig deep into understanding, uh, what is a gender neutral language, right? So we had to go over our job descriptions, um, check for those wording wordings that were not matching that, that gender neutral way, way of communicating, um, as well as job advertisements and LinkedIn communication and Instagram communication and whatnot. Then, um, we also did, uh, um, women hackathon, um, I think it was, was it this year or last year, Maria? Yeah, it was already in January this year. Yeah. Um, and that was cool as well to see, uh, like empowering women to actually solve tech challenges and getting to know some more tech talent along the way as well, female tech talent.
Speaker 0 00:29:02 Um, and then, um, we also added in all our job descriptions. This was something really cool and something that we continuously get feedback, like positive feedback on from candidates and from the team. Um, we added a short paragraph at the end of every job description that is posted online, um, that gives you the number of, you know, some statistics in terms of like, um, how many women quit applying jobs when they don't meet all the criteria. And actually we also leave a, a, a small message saying like, Please don't do this. You know, we wanna hear from you anyway, even if you don't match all the criteria, right? Um, and, and this is something really cool and something that I, I, I'm getting the chills now because we actually do get a lot of positive feedback from this. And finally, uh, we also lo launched this diversity campaign online, um, again, focused on, on female, on hiring female developers, um, with some really powerful, powerful messaging, uh, in, um, really our idea was really to shock the audience, you know, a bit, uh, and to, and to put us out there, uh, and say like, Hey, we actually, um, are not good.
Speaker 0 00:30:09 No, we are good at software development, but hey, we are still not good at diversity, so help us out, you know, we wanna get to know you, we wanna meet you. Um, this was something cool as well. Um, I guess I'm not forgetting anything, but I think, um, something that we continuously do and something that is just really very, very important is that we, we try to continuously educate a team, um, on the numbers and on the importance of diversity, because it is, we shouldn't assume that it is obvious, obvious for everyone, you know, because it is a male dominated industry. And when you are amongst that, um, that environment, you, and, and in your busy day to day, you unconsciously don't realize it, You know, you just genuinely don't realize how important it is and how, how important it is to have a diverse team and, um, and how negative it is to not have as many female, uh, people in your team as well
Speaker 2 00:30:59 As Madena was saying, for the social media campaigns, our goal was to be a bit, uh, provocative, I would say, uh, but also looking inwards. And I think that's something that companies need to do more often, which is looking at themselves, right? And realizing that they're not perfect. They're not actually doing what they set out to do, right? In our values, we say that we want a diverse team, but then, but then if in our recruitment processing, if in our employer branding initiatives, we don't do anything focused on that, then we are failing at it. Um, so sometimes also just looking inwards is really the brave thing to do and the right thing to do as well.
Speaker 1 00:31:40 I totally get that. And I think, um, I, I, so I, my, it's a big passion of mine, the d i piece as well, so I love how passionate you guys are about it as well. Um, I've run a couple of those, those hackathons as well. It's, it's such a, it's such an electric atmosphere because it's kind of a little bit, I know it's a little bit old fashioned, but it's a little bit girl power and everyone gets, they wanna chat about stuff and it's great. Um, I also, I I had read the, um, statistic at the bottom of your, um, adverts. It's something like 60% or men only, uh, men will apply when they feel like they've had, they meet 60% of criteria, but women feel like they need to meet a hundred percent, or, and, and, you know, I think that's really interesting thing and something that really resonated with me, actually.
Speaker 1 00:32:27 Um, but yeah, I think, um, I, I, I love how much kind of emphasis you guys are putting on this because, you know, I think from an outsider's perspective, if you think rocket scientists, you immediately think men, right? Like, it's a, it's an unconscious thing. It comes directly into your mind, you don't really think about it. Um, but, you know, and, and I also love that, um, I read that your, your founder has a, one of your founders has a daughter aspiring rocket scientist. I love that as well. So that, that's a, that's a really powerful thing for me too. Um, and I think something which kind of supports that d thing is the, um, ability to, um, remote work. And you've talked about remote working a few times, um, during this session already, but you've relatively recently launched a remote friendly policy, right? So it'd be great to hear a little bit more about that and why you've put it in, how you've implemented that change.
Speaker 2 00:33:26 Sure. I'll try to keep it short because I could talk about it forever, <laugh>, because it's been such a huge process. Uh, again, a lot of ups and downs, iterations with the team, a lot of, uh, reading, I think I, I read so many blog articles, uh, about, you know, the dos and don'ts of, of remote work, what certain companies, uh, were doing differently. Uh, and then in Portugal, it's a very conservative, uh, country still, and companies are still very conservative. And for my friends, everyone was getting back to work, uh, even during the pandemic. Uh, so it was weird to, to have, you know, this stage of what do we do? Where do we fit in? Are we fully remote? Are we a hybrids, uh, situation? Are, are we going to make everyone come to the office? So there were a lot of questions that needed an answer to, and even when you think that you have the main answer saying, Okay, we are remote friendly, what does exactly this mean?
Speaker 2 00:34:28 You know, what can our team expect from this remote friendly policy? Um, so it was a learning process. I, I think it still is. I wouldn't say that we have a bulletproof policy. Uh, we are, I think we're on a good track. Um, but for sure, now that the pandemic is over, we'll have to revisit again, uh, some of the things that we, we established. So just, uh, in summary, the remote friendly policy that we have currently in place means that, uh, our hiring focus is I Portugal, meaning that we try to hire locally to make sure that it's easy for the team to meet. Um, but of course, sometimes depending on the type of skills that we're looking for or the language that we're looking for, we might need to look abroad. Uh, but the focus will remain in Portugal, um, so that if we want to get together, logistics aren't as hard, uh, as if we were all in different places in the world.
Speaker 2 00:35:28 However, if people want to work from anywhere else, they can do so, right? So we don't really, uh, give restrictions as to where they should be at a given time. Um, and what we do provides is a budget for them to come, uh, four times, um, per year whenever they, they choose to, which we call doc weeks. So they can just choose any given week to, to come to Lisbon and repay for accommodation and travel, uh, which I think is a good incentive for them to come more often. Um, we also have a commuting budget for people who live in Lisbon, uh, to make sure that they can comfortably come to the, come to the office. Um, and besides that, what we created was what we called the boost weeks. Um, the boost weeks are weeks where we want to boost everyone up basically and make sure that we connect.
Speaker 2 00:36:24 Um, so those are pre defined weeks. So in comparison with the weeks, uh, these are weeks that we already have in our calendar for the year. Um, everyone is, uh, should be at the office during those weeks. And then we divide the, the days, uh, between teams, uh, so that there's also not a huge crowd suddenly at the office. Um, but the goal is that we have four weeks in the year that we know that we will all meet each other, we do something fun together. Uh, it'll be mostly about brainstorming, strategy thinking, uh, thinking, uh, it'll be about white boarding sessions. So it's going to be weeks where we have more dynamic work, um, and to ensure that everyone gets, uh, realigned and connected. Um, so that's in, in some what we do, right? So focusing Portugal, people can work from anywhere. We have predefined weeks where everyone meets, and we also support, uh, people throughout the year if they want to join us here in Lisbon. So that's, uh, more or less what we do.
Speaker 0 00:37:30 Um, so for, for the, the boost weeks, what it's also cool that we do as Maria saying, like, we mix teams up, uh, throughout the week. And the idea is that we, we actually try to make them work closer together, right? So, and we actually ask team leads from Valley space, like, who do you feel that you need to actually get in touch with during this boost week, right? So who do you feel you need to be close to this week, um, because you're having some challenges together or you're having issues communicating together, or, you know, you need to work closer together for some reason, you need to have a whiteboarding session or something like that, right? So we actually, it's all strategic, right? The way we, we plan these weeks. Um, and we always have an, an all hands day for us to all be together, but then on the other days we try to actually be strategic in, in, in that, which is actually pretty cool.
Speaker 2 00:38:17 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:38:18 Love that. So how, how does that work kind of outside of the boost weeks or outside? So if you have more people who are remote, are you finding you are needing to do more kind of proactive connection building as people have been working more from home?
Speaker 2 00:38:35 Yeah, so for, for the last, uh, couple of months we've been seeing how this policy is coming together, right? Who is coming to the office, uh, are more people staying at home, uh, what are their needs? And we are already having some learning. So first, uh, there's more people staying at home than coming to the office despite having the incentives that we give. So this means that, you know, the home setup is something that people value. That's also why we also decided to create a home office budget, uh, which people can use to have, you know, their main setup at home and feel comfortable there. Um, but we, throughout the, the last few months, we also saw that a connection gets lost in the meantime, right? So we, we try and we incentivize people to meet at the office, uh, by doing after work drinks or by having Friday breakfast, um, you know, by saying this week there's going to be a rocket lunch, let's all get together, uh, order some pizzas and watch the rocket lunch, uh, from the office. So yes, we're that nerdy <laugh>. It's so cool. You guys have such a
Speaker 1 00:39:45 Cool job, <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:39:46 <laugh>. Uh, but yeah, it's through. So I think the people ops team really needs to drive the connection forwards and remind people that it is essential for their work to have the, the connection and the empathy as well. I think something that got lost during the pandemic was, uh, understanding what others do because we don't see others working, right? So when you're at home alone, you're in your, your own worlds and you think that whatever you're doing is the priority and whatever it is that you're doing needs to have your focus. When you come to the office, you see that everyone else is just as focused and has their own priorities. So you need to respect their space, You need to communicate better, you need to make sure that, uh, whenever they ask you something is because they really need it, uh, instead of ignoring it, right? Um, so bringing people together creates a new sense of empathy for whatever everyone is doing and understanding of their work. And I think that's super important and can be forgotten for sure.
Speaker 1 00:40:50 It is incredibly important. And, you know, as, as more organizations become more kind of remote first in their working, there needs to be kind of that understanding right back from the beginning, right? So when you are hiring people and you're going through that cultural alignment piece, people need to know that this is how you work as a business and this is how it's going to work going forward. Um, and that's gonna become more and more prevalent in the, in the tech space, in the startup space in terms of how people do this. There's a lot of companies who've been working fully remote for a long, long time, and there's a lot that we can learn from them, I think. Um, but it's, it's great to see that you guys are proactively thinking about how you can make sure there's still a connection there. Um, so I'm aware of time. So in terms of, um, kinda a, a, a key piece information, right? So all this learning throughout your scale up and how, through your growth and, you know, you guys have work incredibly hard to make sure this is a, um, an efficient and an effective process. What, what's the one piece of advice that each of you would give to, to people on operations leaders out there when it comes to, to building and scaling teams?
Speaker 2 00:42:04 So I would say two main things, which is, uh, be our leadership and their teams' best friends. So they, they need to trust you, and that's super important. So make sure that you build an environment of trust from either side, because you'll be in the middle and you need to be fair for both sides, and you need to make sure that both sides are being heard and that you coordinate, uh, everything in a fair way. And then the second thing is to ask for feedback and check in constantly with your team, because without them, there is no company. And if they're not happy, and if you don't know that they're not happy, you can't really do much about it. So checking in constantly, it's, it's key.
Speaker 1 00:42:44 Hundred percent <inaudible>.
Speaker 0 00:42:47 Yeah, I would say I totally agree with Maria. So I would definitely give that advice. I mean, we are, we are a team people operations. We should be the ones driving something forward, but we can never do it alone. We need to co-create everything we do with the team. It needs to, we, we, we need to work together like all the time, get feedback, listen to, to what they have to tell us, listen to what their pains are, what their needs are, and then create something that fits that. Um, so, so definitely that's, and then, uh, something that I would really add, uh, is the fact that, um, people operations is now growing, right? Uh, it's something like increasingly being mentioned. Uh, so there are, there is a lot of research to do and we should really lean on people, ops, communities and peers out there within the tech and, um, the tech startup and scale of world.
Speaker 0 00:43:35 There are plenty of Slack channels, WhatsApp groups, whatever that, that we can join and actually find teams with the same challenges, going through the same difficulties and actually finding a lot of great ideas or actionables coming out from, from those groups as well. Right? Uh, and to be fairly honest, that's ex exactly how me and Maria met. So that's very funny. Uh, we just connected on LinkedIn cuz we were both exactly in the same position. So I was alone in the people ops team in a tech company in Portugal. She was alone in Valley Space. And then we just started connecting and um, we scheduled a Zoom call to discuss some ideas and brainstorm a little bit. And then all of a sudden this, this position at, at Valley space came, came through and I decided to give it a try. Um, I can't do way
Speaker 2 00:44:18 Into Valley Space <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:44:19 I mean, to be fair, by the sounds of, you know, you guys talking throughout this whole conversation, a lot of what you do is around, you know, making sure that you are doing the best that you can through research, through understanding, I mean, even the remote policy, you know, Maria was saying you did a lot of research, a lot of reading, and I think that's amazing that it's not just a, well, this is what I've done before, so this is what I'm gonna stick in place. It's a case of, you know, um, crowdsourcing that, you know, the best in class information. Um, so what about on the, what about on the flip side, is there any kind of key pitfalls, mistakes that you see often made? I mean, when you've been watching those groups and you see someone say something you think, maybe, maybe avoid that one. Um, anything that you would advise people to, you know, be cautious of when they're implementing new solutions like this?
Speaker 2 00:45:11 Yes. Um, I would say not doing what everyone else is doing. So a little bit, what you were just mentioning, learned, right? Uh, just because someone decides to do a full remote policy doesn't mean that you have to do it as well. And just because everyone else is bringing people to the office, that's also probably not the best for your team. So checking in with your team first and then creating the policy is what you should do, not just, of course, again, you should get inspired by other companies, but then also thinking, what do you guys want? You know, what does my team want? Um, and also managing expectations. I think, uh, sometimes people over promise, uh, or under promise and managing expectations, uh, not only for the leadership team, but also for the rest of the team is, is key to have a smooth, uh, process throughout.
Speaker 0 00:46:06 Yeah. And, uh, I would say like, so in, in addition to all that, that I fully, um, back Maria up, um, I would say that I, I see a lot of people teams as well, making just assumptions, you know, just assuming that that's what their team needs, that's what their team wants. And you should see like my, my calendar and or our calendar and our, our time and space is actually filled with like having conversations with people. You know, we're building all of this because we're actually talking to every single person on our team, be its team, lead, leadership team, um, or just a regular team member or interns even, you know, like, and actually trying to iterate on, on whatever we have so that we actually don't make any assumptions. And I think that's, um, that's, that's really super important to, to make everything that Meia just said in reality as well, in terms of like not having one size fits all, uh, solution and, and managing expectations of the team.
Speaker 1 00:47:05 What would be your magic wand you haven't maybe found the best solution for would be?
Speaker 2 00:47:15 I, I love this question. Um, it really made me think about what it would be and, uh, considering the state of where we are currently, so in this high growth, uh, uh, status, uh, at Valley Space, I would say that if I could, I would make everyone speak the same language. And I don't mean in the, in terms of if we all speak English or German or Portuguese, I mean, in the way we communicate, because I think that probably 90% of the issues, uh, or conflicts arise from people not really understanding each other because I say something, the other person pursues it in another way, uh, or they, you know, they just select one part of the information. Uh, so I would say right now speaking the same language just to make sure that everyone understands each other.
Speaker 0 00:48:06 And it's funny because I think that that specific situation regarding communication actually aggravated with all this remote work going on, right? So a lot of the, the messages that I receive from Slack, I mean, I might perceive it in a way that actually the other person doesn't mean it at all that way, right? So that, that becomes a, a much bigger reality and, and problem to solve, let's say with the magic wand. So I, I would just mention two things. So I think we've figured out a secret recipe to remote working more or less, right? As Madea said, our policy is not yet, uh, bulletproof, but it's, it's getting there. I think the next step for us, and what I would do with the magic one now is figuring out the topic of remote collaboration, right? So how can we help our team collaborate remote in a remote setup?
Speaker 0 00:48:47 Uh, and then definitely the second thing, obviously as a people, um, ops person and, and obviously a people pleaser, I would really try to figure out a way of how I can please everyone and make everyone happy and engaged and motivated at the same time and exactly the same way, you know, because I think it's the, one of the hardest challenges for us every time we build the policy and we think like, yes, like everyone is gonna be happy with this, you know, everyone is gonna love this. Um, and then all of a sudden we have like, you know, two, three, whatever, how many people, um, not happy with what we've done or, you know, and then again we have to iterate on that, but then there are other people that are not happy. So it's a constant, uh, challenge that I would just really like to have it solved and only possible with the magic want <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:49:30 Yeah, definitely. You're never gonna please everybody with never right? <laugh>. Um, I love how, and I've said this a few times, but I love how passionate you both are about this, and, you know, it's, it's, it's been a really refreshing conversation to me to have this conversation. And by the way, if you want to tot out the remote working piece in terms of collaboration, it's something that's seed actually do really well. So let's maybe have that conversation as well. Yes,
Speaker 0 00:49:54 For sure.
Speaker 1 00:49:55 So what is your, just just to finish off a, a lighthearted question, cause this has been quite in depth conversation, so something that you are really passionate about, can be professional, can be personal, could be both. What's the thing that makes you tick?
Speaker 0 00:50:11 Uh, so definitely what, what I'm doing right now. So my, my role at Valley Space is something that, um, that really makes me tick, as you said. I really love the fact that I, uh, that I know I gain people's trust and that I really, that I, that I know that I, they can count on me to help them out with whatever they need. I think that's a very, very special thing I was able to build here, which valley space. And that's only also possible, not only because of, of myself, but also because of the team that I work with. So, um, it has been great and, and it, I'm really passionate about what I'm doing right now. Um, and then definitely my dog <laugh>, sorry, my dog,
Speaker 2 00:50:52 I totally agree with. Um, I would just add that for me it's all about, you know, the, the moments that we share together. I think those are the, the ones that bring most joy for me. Um, I think I, I really like to create the memories with the team and you know, I always imagine myself in the future when I'm older, thinking back, uh, what will I remember? And I think I will remember, you know, our company retreats, uh, the time when, again, we saw Rocket Lunch altogether, or the time when, uh, someone lost their pants, <laugh> at a company retreat. So this <laugh> this happened. <laugh>, I won't say who, but the person, if they listen to this, they will know <laugh>. Um, but those are the funny stories, right? And I think that's, that's what make me tick, not just professionally, but also personally. Those are the things that, um, bring some warmth into my hearts.
Speaker 1 00:51:53 You guys are so nice, <laugh>. Is there anything else that you, um, that you want to discuss? Is there anything else that you want to kind raise as your final points today, Guys? I mean, thank you so much for the conversation. It's been really interesting.
Speaker 2 00:52:10 Thank you so much as well. Uh, I've had a lovely time talking about this. Uh, I could go on and on. <laugh>, uh, especially me and nna, we, we really love these topics and, uh, we've been discussing them for so long that we, we really like to share our learnings and also what we do at Valley Space and hearing from other people what they're doing, um, always inspire us. That's why we also write now some, uh, blog articles telling people what we are doing. Not necessarily to tell them that this is the right way, but more as, Hey, did you know that we're actually trying this out? And if you wanna talk about it, uh, give us a call. You know, that's always our mindset, um, because that's also how you, you grow and how you learn, uh, in not only professionally, but also personally, I would say.
Speaker 0 00:52:59 Yeah, exactly. Um, thank you so much Lauren and, and seed for hosting us. Uh, it's been really a lovely chat. As Meia said, we could go on and on. Uh, you said we have cool jobs, but I think you have a really cool job being able to talk to a lot of cool and smart and, you know, uh, interesting people, ops people, um, and teams. So I'm sure that's, that's a super cool job and something that me and Maria would love to do.
Speaker 1 00:53:24 <laugh> Well, you can always watch, you can always watch them all back, you know, <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:53:28 For sure, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you're by now a vault of knowledge, right? From everything that you've been hearing.
Speaker 1 00:53:35 Yes. Stealing all the good bits. Absolutely
Speaker 2 00:53:38 <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:53:39 So yeah, thank you so both so much for your, your time and your insights and openness to, you know, talking about everything from, um, diversity to rocket science, to losing your pants. I love that <laugh> really hugely. It's been great hearing more about you both as well, as well as about better space. Um, and, you know, good luck with everything and get in touch with us if we wanted, if you wanna discuss additional things as well, because, you know, I'd love to to share some more things with you guys and I'd love to hear more about what you guys are doing in the future as well. Um, and you know, we can't see, we can't wait to see what's next. So
Speaker 2 00:54:14 Yeah, let's definitely do that. And also feel free to visit us in Lisman. We always like to, to welcome people and I mean, Libo is the perfect holiday spot. So <laugh> let us know if You stop by. Thank you so.
